For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone

[Darkwing Duck]

Here's a Christian song for admin:

I love you, you love me,
We're a happy family
With a great big hug and a kiss from me to you,
Won't you say you love me too?

(it fits your "Speak Life" criteria in that love is a Biblical concept just as encouragement)


*I didn't catch up, has admin already admitted he was wrong about this one?

 

[Bob H]

Posts 228 and 230

Either you misunderstood Bob H, or you are misrepresenting him.  He clearly was saying that when emotionalism and music disproportionately misplaces the primary emphasis of preaching then emotionalism has become a problem, and he is right.  He was not saying that emotion in and of itself is a problem.  Your misrepresentation of Bob's argument is similar to the IFBxer that says that all who promote moderate drinking of alcohol are promoting drunkenness.

Thank you again Al. A lot of "services" could use more.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Here's a Christian song for admin:

I love you, you love me,
We're a happy family
With a great big hug and a kiss from me to you,
Won't you say you love me too?

(it fits your "Speak Life" criteria in that love is a Biblical concept just as encouragement)


*I didn't catch up, has admin already admitted he was wrong about this one?

Admin admit he was wrong?

 

[subllibrm]

Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday dear Jesus,
Happy Birthday to you.

To be sung at Christmas

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Why isn't anybody jumping on the evils of Amazing Grace?

It doesn't mention Jesus by name.

It extols praise on an inanimate object.

It is put to the tune of an old Irish pub song so it is associated with alcohol.

How is this not a Baptastic taboo?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So the directive doesn't matter (not addressed toward Jesus), shows adoration to a created thing (grace) and not directly the to the Creator alone and it's musical prose is set to a tune that thousands have drunk to, celebrating in an inebriated state.

This is regardless who sings it.

How can this song be even considered for any worship service, even if sung by George Beverly Shea?

 

[christundivided]

I can't believe this turned into acceptable and unacceptable triggers to worship...

I've been amazed at what put me in the mood to worship..... this doesn't mean my emotions shouldn't be constrained by common sense.

Private and public worship are entirely two different things.

Sm...

Amazing Grace is set to an old African slave melody.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The church I just mentioned having attended last weekend had about 40 minutes of warmup music, and then about 40 minutes of sermon, with a short couple of minutes invitation, so it fits the bill fairly well.  Too much emphasis on music, not enough on the word.
[/quote]

This just shows that we have fundamentally different views on the purpose of the church.

 

[subllibrm]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The church I just mentioned having attended last weekend had about 40 minutes of warmup music, and then about 40 minutes of sermon, with a short couple of minutes invitation, so it fits the bill fairly well.  Too much emphasis on music, not enough on the word.

This just shows that we have fundamentally different views on the purpose of the church.
[/quote]

Maybe. I am more inclined to think it is a different view on how to accomplish the purpose of the church.

The idea that the church service should be predominately about the teaching of scripture may come from the idea that there is no other learning happening and that the pastor is (must be?) the primary source of said teaching. If that is the starting point then it would make sense to conclude that "too much" music is going to interfere with the discipleship/growth of the people.

On the other hand, if your church body starts with the premise that the Sunday service is first for the purpose of glorifying God and that all should participate as much as is practicable then you will not find the above ratio problematic.

This really goes back to the question of single pastor versus multiple elders. As long as the people are being fed in a planned, organized manner then the Sunday service opens up to a more participatory experience.

******************

Quick thought on this. Our pastor (my 8th since joining the church 30+ years ago) is the first one who would schedule a speaker (from inside or outside the church) on a Sunday that he is not away. I mentioned this to him when I first noticed it last year. The previous men were all of the mindset of "jealously guarding the sacred desk". His response? Two part - "I like to listen and learn too" and "when will the other men here have the chance to develop their pulpit gifts if I am always in the way?"  He is not cut of the mould that he is the only one that God can use to move His people.

While this seems to me a small difference it is making a huge difference in our church. People are hungry and growing because our pastor has given them permission to do so without relying on him to be their only source. Men who are gifted to teach and preach are stepping up to fill this "new found" need.

This summer our Sunday school series is on faithful men of scripture. He has assigned the elders each a week to bring the lesson. He will do the first and last weeks. Other than giving them the name of the person they are to teach on and a declarative sentence fitting the narrative of that individual, he is providing nothing in the way of curriculum. If desired he will help develop a lesson but is allowing each man to study out the life of the person and bring the lesson God gives to them. I am the only elder not involved due to my camp responsibilities so I hope they tape the series.

It thrills me to see pastor intentionally and gently pushing us elders into our proper biblical role.

If all of us are actively teaching throughout the week then there may be room for an extra song of two on Sunday. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The church I just mentioned having attended last weekend had about 40 minutes of warmup music, and then about 40 minutes of sermon, with a short couple of minutes invitation, so it fits the bill fairly well.  Too much emphasis on music, not enough on the word.

This just shows that we have fundamentally different views on the purpose of the church.
[/quote]

Yes, you are correct.  I stand against the notion that you and subllibrm put forth which claims that music has an equal part in the Christian worship experience.  In that sense, I stand with ages of protestant evangelical emphasis.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Maybe. I am more inclined to think it is a different view on how to accomplish the purpose of the church.

The idea that the church service should be predominately about the teaching of scripture may come from the idea that there is no other learning happening and that the pastor is (must be?) the primary source of said teaching.

The church will not be judged by the Lord for the quality of her music but for the faithfulness of her preaching.-- Pope Albert Mohler the Great

If expository preaching is authoritative, and if it demands reverence, it must also be at the center of Christian worship. Worship properly directed to the honor and glory of God will find its center in the reading and preaching of the Word of God. Expository preaching cannot be assigned a supporting role in the act of worship – it must be central.

  Mr Mohler the Magnificent

"for Luther the most important reform needed in the worship of the Church of his day was to reestablish the centrality of the reading and preaching of the Word in public worship.”

Maybe we need some more reform amongst professing evangelicals today who want to push the proclamation of the word to the backseat of the bus.

If that is the starting point then it would make sense to conclude that "too much" music is going to interfere with the discipleship/growth of the people.

On the other hand, if your church body starts with the premise that the Sunday service is first for the purpose of glorifying God and that all should participate as much as is practicable then you will not find the above ratio problematic.

This really goes back to the question of single pastor versus multiple elders. As long as the people are being fed in a planned, organized manner then the Sunday service opens up to a more participatory experience.

******************

Quick thought on this. Our pastor (my 8th since joining the church 30+ years ago) is the first one who would schedule a speaker (from inside or outside the church) on a Sunday that he is not away. I mentioned this to him when I first noticed it last year. The previous men were all of the mindset of "jealously guarding the sacred desk". His response? Two part - "I like to listen and learn too" and "when will the other men here have the chance to develop their pulpit gifts if I am always in the way?"  He is not cut of the mould that he is the only one that God can use to move His people.

While this seems to me a small difference it is making a huge difference in our church. People are hungry and growing because our pastor has given them permission to do so without relying on him to be their only source. Men who are gifted to teach and preach are stepping up to fill this "new found" need.

This summer our Sunday school series is on faithful men of scripture. He has assigned the elders each a week to bring the lesson. He will do the first and last weeks. Other than giving them the name of the person they are to teach on and a declarative sentence fitting the narrative of that individual, he is providing nothing in the way of curriculum. If desired he will help develop a lesson but is allowing each man to study out the life of the person and bring the lesson God gives to them. I am the only elder not involved due to my camp responsibilities so I hope they tape the series.

It thrills me to see pastor intentionally and gently pushing us elders into our proper biblical role.

If all of us are actively teaching throughout the week then there may be room for an extra song of two on Sunday. 

All of us aren't called to the position to teach.  Moreover, then idea that the elder vs single-pastor rule is somehow to blame here is a non-sequitur.  The primacy of the word is a hallmark of evangelical thought, regardless of the eccesiology.

 

[Bob H]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The church I just mentioned having attended last weekend had about 40 minutes of warmup music, and then about 40 minutes of sermon, with a short couple of minutes invitation, so it fits the bill fairly well.  Too much emphasis on music, not enough on the word.

This just shows that we have fundamentally different views on the purpose of the church.

Maybe. I am more inclined to think it is a different view on how to accomplish the purpose of the church.

The idea that the church service should be predominately about the teaching of scripture may come from the idea that there is no other learning happening and that the pastor is (must be?) the primary source of said teaching. If that is the starting point then it would make sense to conclude that "too much" music is going to interfere with the discipleship/growth of the people.

On the other hand, if your church body starts with the premise that the Sunday service is first for the purpose of glorifying God and that all should participate as much as is practicable then you will not find the above ratio problematic.

This really goes back to the question of single pastor versus multiple elders. As long as the people are being fed in a planned, organized manner then the Sunday service opens up to a more participatory experience.

******************

.........................................If all of us are actively teaching throughout the week then there may be room for an extra song of two on Sunday. 
[/quote]


Nice post. To start with, as a laydude I'm not denying the responsibility of the laypeople. We're to: ->"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.....That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine". It's my responsibility. With that said the "purpose of the church" is to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature". One reason were to meet is to be equipped to do that task out side the church building. The Lord gave "pastors & teachers" to:-->"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:". So I guess there is a disagreement on the "purpose"  .  But I'll have to say thru my experience with Christians, which included working in a big factory for almost 42 yrs, that the job is being poorly done. One reason is, is that most only go once a week. That ain't gonna do it. As far as one pastor vs elders I don't see what difference it would make. If you can get them out "throughout the week" you're doing better than most.

 

[Bob H]

Man, we've almost talked about everything on this thread 

 

[Ransom]

OK, I've just scanned this entire thread, and now I just have to ask:

What in the name of Jack Hyles' frilly lace panties is a "worship trigger"?

 

[subllibrm]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The church I just mentioned having attended last weekend had about 40 minutes of warmup music, and then about 40 minutes of sermon, with a short couple of minutes invitation, so it fits the bill fairly well.  Too much emphasis on music, not enough on the word.

This just shows that we have fundamentally different views on the purpose of the church.

Yes, you are correct.  I stand against the notion that you and subllibrm put forth which claims that music has an equal part in the Christian worship experience.  In that sense, I stand with ages of protestant evangelical emphasis.
[/quote]

I didn't say equal.

 

[subllibrm]

If your church holds a "singsparation" and no one gives a devotional, did worship happen?

 

[subllibrm]

Anyone here ever learn carpentry by listening to a lecture on the subject?

 

[subllibrm]

I have in no way suggested that the preaching of the Word be minimized. What I did see was the suggestion that 50/50 music to preaching ratio was somehow denigrating to preaching.

My response was that this stems (from my experience and what my preachers have said and lived out) from the idea that the preaching time is the equipping time. I believe that the sermon is to teach doctrinal concepts and biblical principles. But that is only part of the job.

Preaching is for edification and challenge. So the pastor will preach a powerful message on how we need to get out there and do the work of the ministry (with which I agree BTW). He will use different devices to make his point. He will get us all charged up to "storm the gates of hell"! We will come forward in floods to the altar to make a commitment to be the light we are called to be. And then we all go home, no more prepared to "do" than we were when we got there.

Where does the equipping of the saints come in? Bob H pointed out the effects of ill equipped saints in the workplace. The response could be that it is because the average Christian really didn't mean it when he walked the aisle to commit to be a light in his part of the world. They are lazy! They are carnal! They listen to CCM  ! Or any of a number of explanations as to why the congregation isn't getting the job done.

My point is that the ill equipped saint is a result of misdirected energy on the part of the church leadership. The pastor cannot claim to have no culpability for a flock unable to do the work of the ministry. Yes, I said unable. I know that this will lead to the charge of "unwilling" but the scenario I spelled out about my church destroys this conclusion. Why are the exact same people now pushing forward to work? It wasn't because of a pulpit delivered guilt trip. It is because the pastor has said not only "you should" he also has said "you can and I will show you how". One man cannot train (equip) 300 by himself. He needs to train some who will train some more, who will train some more. That is the biblical pattern.

No pastor should ever blame his people if he has not properly equipped them. Complaining that he has told them over and over what to do and they still won't do it. He needs to step back and consider that the problem may not be that they won't do it but that he hasn't taught them how to do it.

Flame on boys but don't tell me it isn't true because I have lived it.

*****************************************

Now back to the worship service. How long is long enough for the preaching? How long is long enough for the singing?

Let's say that you have prepared a one hour sermon. You get up on Sunday morning and deliver all that you have prepared. Maybe it takes you an hour and ten to finish because the Spirit prompted you with a thought that helped make the message clearer. Maybe you pull it off in 55 minutes because everything just fell into place so cleanly. This is great, the word is proclaimed, hearts are moved and God is glorified. Now how much singing by the people will it take to "diminish" the value of that preaching?

I went back to see how Alayman worded it. "Too much emphasis on music, not enough on the word." What ratio of song to sermon will maintain the correct "emphasis"?  Obviously 50/50 is out so 40/60? 30/70? 20/80?

Or is the issue that the 40 minutes mentioned isn't along enough sermon?

All I know is that they didn't do it right!

 

[ALAYMAN]

I didn't say equal.

You said that the ratio (40 minutes of singing and 40 minutes of sermon)  "you will not find the above ratio problematic".  How is 40/40 not an equal ratio?

 

[rsc2a]

My daughter loves helping me in the garden. Is it because I've explained how we are saving money, the health advantages of growing our own food, the added exercise benefit and how it is good stewardship? Or is it because she gets to watch a field of weeds turn into plowed ground, because she gets to take the seed herself and put it into the ground, and she gets to watch that seed sprout into plants, plants that then produce food that she gets to pick and then enjoy?

Now it is important that she learns when plants are ready to harvest, how far seeds need to be spaced and all the other things that require teaching. But that teaching isn't what makes her drag me into the garden as soon as I get home every day. What causes that is her getting to taste fresh strawberries, watch her seeds grow, and every other way she actively participates in the activity.

Of course, you could keep insisting that church is primarily about a lecture...