For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone

[christundivided]

granted they probably don;t rank very high on the entertainment scale..... it;s one of those things you would have to be there in person and singing along to appreciate...... which is.... as i said before.... what i believe church worship music is all about........ [/font][/size][/color]

Well said. I agree 100 percent. Worship music involves lifting your heart up to God. It has very little to do with anything else.

 

[subllibrm]

http://youtu.be/JnXv2gAfPpE

My parents Church sing this song all the time. The above video is similar in how it might sound.

Thanks Tiim

 

[subllibrm]

Well said. I agree 100 percent. Worship music involves lifting your heart up to God. It has very little to do with anything else.

And who wrote it and the style in which it is played so not prevent the lifting of one's heart. In fact style can make it even more profound to the one who is participating. For instance, the link Tim shared gave me goose bumps (or as my pastor calls them; Jesus bumps) especially toward the end when the tympani were brought in for emphasis.

This whole debate is silly in light of what you state here. For one person to tell another that what type of music they find profitable in worship is "unacceptable" is the height of arrogance. Who am I to question how another person is blessed by worship?

 

[subllibrm]

Well said. I agree 100 percent. Worship music involves lifting your heart up to God. It has very little to do with anything else.

And who wrote it and the style in which it is played so not prevent the lifting of one's heart. In fact style can make it even more profound to the one who is participating. For instance, the link Tim shared gave me goose bumps (or as my pastor calls them; Jesus bumps) especially toward the end when the tympani were brought in for emphasis.

This whole debate is silly in light of what you state here. For one person to tell another that what type of music they find profitable in worship is "unacceptable" is the height of arrogance. Who am I to question how another person is blessed by worship?

as opposed to your kind of arrogance that assumes what ever is profitable and acceptable for you must therefor automatically be acceptable for me ... or else you have to go on a frenetic campaign trying to convince me, and everyone else, i am wrong?.........

for the most part i agree with what you said in your post.... it really is nobody elses business to tell another person how to worship...... or even to criticize them and demand answers if you find they worship in a different way........... your last question is especially good......you could rephrase it another way and ask.......

"who am i to question why another person is not blessed by particular style of worship?"....

...........and it is still just as valid a question........ is it not?.......

I have no problem turning the question back to me. That is pretty much my MO on issues large and small. So yes, the question is valid in both directions.

I also do not recall making any kind of critical comment on using hymns exclusively. Nor have I made demands that anyone adopt/adapt to more modern music. I happen to have a very eclectic taste in music styles so I find very little that offends me and even less that I don't find valuable in some way. The most important thing in my opinion is that when there are 200+ people in the room with me and someone is being blessed by the song being sung, who am I to tell them that they can't be worshiping with that music just because it isn't my cup of tea?

Funny thing to me is that I have been tagged as being a CCM (praise and worship is probably a better term) proponent as if I would toss the hymn book. Not even close. I am old and I "prefer" using the hymnal and singing parts to the old standards. That does not make me more spiritual or more mature or more godly. It makes me normal in that I like what I like.

The reason that I keep bringing up the Gettys is that they write music that is a bridge between the old and the new. The music follows a more traditional structure and the lyrics are biblically solid and deep.

But FTR my posts have all been in light of the OP by Frag. A post that I would consider "a frenetic campaign trying to convince me, and everyone else, i am wrong":

There are seven words that have all but destroyed the concept of personal holiness.  It is the drop phrase of the luck-warm, the calling-card of the carnal, and the sound-bite of the backslidden.  These seven words are the most dangerous words a Christian can utter. 

"I don't see anything wrong with it." 


1.  It is dangerous because it starts with "I". Never start with yourself.  Always consider every thing in light of a HOLY God.

2.  It is dangerous because it is based on human sight.  "...don't see...".  The time of the Judges was a time of utter spiritual chaos and unspeakable acts done in the name of God.  What philosophy produced this sad chapter "...every man did that which was right in his own eyes." 

3.  It is dangerous because activity is deemed acceptable because of the perceived absence of a negative instead of the overwhelming presence of a positive.  "...anything wrong with it."  Carnal Christians always wish to put separated saints on the defensive by expecting us to prove what is "wrong" with their worldly activity and carnal compromise.  Sorry.  Nothing EVER should be accepted based on the absence of a negative.  Ball back in your court.  What is right with it?  How does it bring glory and honor to God?  Paul wrote under divine inspiration to the CARNAL church at Corinth:  1 Corinthians 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

My experience is this:  carnality cannot be reasoned with.  I stand in awe at what a worldly Christian can rationalize as acceptable.  God's holiness is not only a forgotten concept, but one much despised.  Sad...

So...Rock Out!  Shimmy and shake for Jesus.  Swoon over your "Jesus is my Boyfriend" songs.  Beat your drums and dance around your golden calf.  Defend your shaggy guitar heroes as "good Christians".  Jam for Jesus.  Look down your nose at those who don't -- declare them "irrelevant" and "out dated".    Go for it!

Does the Bible contain commands and principles that guide us away from CCM?  Absolutely.  Am I inclined to argue these points on this forum.  Nope.  Pearls before swine....

So how does his diatribe fit into your concern about people telling others what is right or wrong in how they worship?

 

[christundivided]

Well said. I agree 100 percent. Worship music involves lifting your heart up to God. It has very little to do with anything else.

And who wrote it and the style in which it is played so not prevent the lifting of one's heart. In fact style can make it even more profound to the one who is participating. For instance, the link Tim shared gave me goose bumps (or as my pastor calls them; Jesus bumps) especially toward the end when the tympani were brought in for emphasis.

Listen..... I've played music most of my adult life. Including many stringed instruments. Music invokes emotion and there is nothing wrong with emotion. However, emotion does not = true worship. Can emotion enhance true worship?? Sure. Yet, it is useless without true worship.

I only have an issue with certain types of music that are hard to understand. Like..... Heavy Christian Rock and Rap....and even some "Opera". type music that have lyrics difficult to understand. I don't believe anyone can say music that is not "understood" can... "MINISTER" to the hearer. As such, they should not be included in "worship" services that seek to "edify" those in Christ.

Can someone personally enjoy such music? Sure. Just don't claim it's "Worship Music". Its nothing more than a secular music and there is nothing wrong with secular music if its not immoral.

This whole debate is silly in light of what you state here. For one person to tell another that what type of music they find profitable in worship is "unacceptable" is the height of arrogance. Who am I to question how another person is blessed by worship?

Who was Paul when he declared the rules for joint worship in 1 Corinthians 14? 

I am sure the same argument was used toward him. Worship all you want to at home to whatever you want to worship to.... When you go to "CHURCH"... apply the rules found in 1 Corinthians 14. Seek to edify one another. Sorry Sub...... its not all about YOU.

 

[.tim]

yet in the same post, where subllibrm posted those videos, he said that;s exactly what his congregation does..... he said the gettys have written a lot of music specifically for congregational singing and that his church uses them....... then why didn;t he post an example of that?.... ???..... 

Since he isn't me I can't see how he could possibly answer this question but I will be glad to.

We don't video record ourselves singing as a congregation so there is nothing to post. If such a thing existed, I would have no problem sharing it.

it was meant as a question anyone... who agreed with you... and might have a video of a congregation singing a getty song... or even a recording of one... could answer.......... i have lots of recordings of congregations singing hymns like the ones my church uses....... and even a few that are in hawaiian sung at my church by the congregation...... granted they probably don;t rank very high on the entertainment scale..... it;s one of those things you would have to be there in person and singing along to appreciate...... which is.... as i said before.... what i believe church worship music is all about........

http://youtu.be/JnXv2gAfPpE

My parents Church sing this song all the time. The above video is similar in how it might sound.

thanks tim....... and even though you said it might sound similar ..... i will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that when they sing that song at your parents church.... kristyn getty doesn;t pick up a microphone and drown out the rest of the congregation so you can;t even hear them..... ......

Generally the music director is heard over the crowd ....

 

[christundivided]

Generally the music director is heard over the crowd ....

No.... This is not true. They might be heard at the beginning and end but "over" the crowd.

 

[subllibrm]

Sorry Sub...... its not all about YOU.

I have no idea how you got there.  ???

 

[subllibrm]

Generally the music director is heard over the crowd ....

No.... This is not true. They might be heard at the beginning and end but "over" the crowd.

Would that not depend on how the sound crew handles things? Besides, how do you know what is "true" in Tim's church?

 

[christundivided]

Generally the music director is heard over the crowd ....

No.... This is not true. They might be heard at the beginning and end but "over" the crowd.

Would that not depend on how the sound crew handles things? Besides, how do you know what is "true" in Tim's church?

So dishonest..... Tim didn't say anything about how it is in "his church". It was a broad statement that used the word "generally".

No self respecting "Sound Crew" would do such things.

 

[christundivided]

Sorry Sub...... its not all about YOU.

I have no idea how you got there.  ???

You were acting as if your desires to worship outweigh the command to seek edification.

 

[.tim]

Generally the music director is heard over the crowd ....

No.... This is not true. They might be heard at the beginning and end but "over" the crowd.

You have visited my parents Church?

Have you ever stopped singing at Church and actually listened? Many Churches that I have visited have a dominate song leader over the congregation. Yes, not always, but generally if you stop singing you will hear him or her LEADING the singing.

 

[christundivided]

Generally the music director is heard over the crowd ....

No.... This is not true. They might be heard at the beginning and end but "over" the crowd.

You have visited my parents Church?

Have you ever stopped singing at Church and actually listened? Many Churches that I have visited have a dominate song leader over the congregation. Yes, not always, but generally if you stop singing you will hear him or her LEADING the singing.

Then you have an arrogant/dominant "song leader". Congregation singing is a "joint" effort in which all voices "BLEND". Song leaders... start and stop the various lines and refrains in a song. Nothing more. Nothing less. If you have such a situation.... then you have a problem. There are far too many "divas" when it comes to "song leaders".

 

[subllibrm]

Sorry Sub...... its not all about YOU.

I have no idea how you got there.  ???

You were acting as if your desires to worship outweigh the command to seek edification.

Funny how I wrote that my desires are the last thing I worry about and you twisted it 180.

Whatever.

Carry on.

 

[christundivided]

Sorry Sub...... its not all about YOU.

I have no idea how you got there.  ???

You were acting as if your desires to worship outweigh the command to seek edification.

Funny how I wrote that my desires are the last thing I worry about and you twisted it 180.

Whatever.

Carry on.

Wasn't my intent. Sorry.

 

[.tim]

Generally the music director is heard over the crowd ....

No.... This is not true. They might be heard at the beginning and end but "over" the crowd.

You have visited my parents Church?

Have you ever stopped singing at Church and actually listened? Many Churches that I have visited have a dominate song leader over the congregation. Yes, not always, but generally if you stop singing you will hear him or her LEADING the singing.

Then you have an arrogant/dominant "song leader". Congregation singing is a "joint" effort in which all voices "BLEND". Song leaders... start and stop the various lines and refrains in a song. Nothing more. Nothing less. If you have such a situation.... then you have a problem. There are far too many "divas" when it comes to "song leaders".

I believe some just sing along and have a mic that amplifies them - naturally they are louder. I don't think they even think about it. I don't have any issues with the song leader being a little louder. Helps me stay in tune and on track.

 

[FSSL]

What makes this discussion convoluted is:

Some want to discuss CCM's use in church
Whereas the OP makes a more broad sweeping point against its use at all.

 

[subllibrm]

Helps me stay in tune and on track.

^this^

We just had new speakers installed that give a wider tonal range. For the first time ever I could hear the guy singing bass, singing bass.

I can follow just fine but I don't have the ability to pick harmony out on my own. Loved being able to sing parts "with" him!

 

[subllibrm]

What makes this discussion convoluted is:

Some want to discuss CCM's use in church
Whereas the OP makes a more broad sweeping point against its use at all.

Add to that the fact that every style/type of music is thrown into the CCM hopper as if it is al the same. Steve Green meet POD.

Someone linked Building 429. This wouldn't be my choice for corporate worship (but I wouldn't walk out either) but I enjoy their music on the radio.

Building 429 - We Won't Be Shaken

Building 429: "Where I Belong" Official Music Video

This next one is popular with our youth group.

Matthew West - Hello, My Name Is (Lyrics)

While this one presents the same basic thought/message in a style much more to my liking.(note that means I prefer the style not that anyone else is obligated to like the song or anything about it).

Casting Crowns - Voice of Truth

On a day when I was really doubting myself as a vessel ft for God's use, this song brought me back to the truth that I am more than a conquerer because of Jesus and His is the voice I will heed. It is a humbling thing to realize that one of the lying voices is your own.

But all CCM is unacceptable for Christians according to Frag and IP among others. I find it sad that they miss so much blessing.

 

[christundivided]

What makes this discussion convoluted is:

Some want to discuss CCM's use in church
Whereas the OP makes a more broad sweeping point against its use at all.

I think the discussion concerning CCM's in church is a more practical discussion..... Who cares what others think about what someone listens to in private.