Former fundys, some of who post here.....ouchie.

[ALAYMAN]

I had the same kind of experience with a candy bar known as a Smoothie as a kid, never to eat another. 

I earned some money as a kid (I think shoveling snow) and spent it on a ton of Lik M Aid (flavored powdered sugar, which also came in straws called Pixy Stix).  I ate enough to make me sick and I could never look at anything resembling flavored powdered sugar again.

For some reason the movie Stand By Me (and projectile vomiting) just popped into my head. 

 

[subllibrm]

At the risk of being further misunderstood I will add a few thoughts.

First when I talk of abuse I do not suggest that there are churches that are totally abusive to all of their members. If there are they are not a church it is a cult.

What I am referring to are the situations where someone in authority mishandles things and then refuses to deal with the fallout of their error in a gracious manner. These are the things that spin out of control and eventually no one (including the offended) can find a middle ground place of peace. I shared one such event recently about the pastor who cut a young man's hair at summer camp in front of all the other kids. Was he an abusive pastor who ran his church as a gulag? No. I knew him well in later years and he made a terrible mistake. But the prevailing mindset that the MoG never show weakness played against his ever reconciling with the boy.

I can think of many times even in my church (which I would not call abusive) where the leadership made no effort to understand how their actions hurt individuals. I can vouch for this  because I have been that individual more than once. Even though I chose to stay and learn to exercise grace in those instances, I still have sympathy for those who were not able to endure such storms.

Human nature and the pride that goes with it lead us to many nasty situations. I suspect in  many situations there is room for confession and contrition on both sides but wouldn't it be marvelous if the leaders actually led? A pastor or other leader who will step into the storm and say "I was wrong". That is putting on your big boy pants. And it is the advice that is never given tot he one who did the hurting only to the one who was hurt.

Never admitting you're (especially a spiritual leader who is supposed to be an example to the flock) wrong, in the event that a person is clearly in the wrong, is clearly foolish.  And people are wise to see through such shenanigans and pride if their spiritual gurus are like that, but to assume that all folk in conservative Christian leadership are like that is just foolish.  Sometimes the person who licks their wounds (perpetually )does so out of immaturity.  I've seen people on this very forum point to the Pharisee who likes to impose his scruples on everybody else and say effectively "I don't have to be held captive to that weaker brother's conscience, and he needs to mature".  They're right in calling such weak sin-sniffers to grow into the liberty that Christ affords, and it is right to not allow the cloak of "injury" to disguise licentious living.

And I would not suggest that all are or that even those who are guilty are guilty all of the time. I am thankful that I was blessed with wise mentoring as a new believer. I am thankful that I have been given the ability (literally given because it surely isn't natural for me) to assume that there is another side to the story and will seek to understand the "why" of what transpired. I am also thankful that I have learned that grace is a two way street. So when I come across that injured/insulted/hurting individual I start with a process of questioning the details of the situation, their actions and offering the suggestion that it may be more misunderstanding than intentional harm. I direct them to Matthew 18. I offer advice on how to broach the subject. I offer to go with them. And I remind them that finding the truth and reconciliation is more important than winning the fight. Some respond and go through the process many don't. What I don't do with those who won't (or can't) is to write them off to the trash heap of hopeless babies who couldn't "man up". As long as they have breath there is the possibility of reconciliation. Burnt bridges and scorched earth are not evidence of grace from either side of the fence.

I will give an example that is as basic as you can get. My wife helped with SS as a teen. The lead teacher did or said something to her that hurt her feelings. Now understand that this is long before I have come on the scene. Fast forward a decade and a conversation comes up between Mrs. sub and me. I suggest asking "Marge" for help on an event. Who knew that the scab was still there and tore off so easily!

After the venting subsided I suggested calling "Marge" and getting this settled and behind them.  "What? That was ten years ago, she'd think I was nuts for still being upset". So I ask if she is going to ask Marge to help. No way she says. I point out that there are two choices, deal with it with Marge and get it settled or apply the point you just made and let it go after ten years. Oh, and my hunch is that Marge neither remembers the event nor was it intentional at the time. So the only one it is hurting is you.

Now before I am accused of being hypocritical for telling my wife to "suck it up" the point is that I took the time to listen to her story, walk her through the thought process and options and didn't just throw the "grow up " grenade at her.  Same process worked well raising my kids too. They refer to it as me "talking them down off the wall". Still get phone calls asking how to handle situations. Still tell them to start with giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. They trust me because they  know I will take their hurt seriously. Seriously enough to help them diagnose it honestly. Discuss it through and tell them when they have remodeled the mole hill with mountain size adornments.

BTW did I mention that I am thankful for the wise mentors that God put in my life early? 

 

[subllibrm]

I had the same kind of experience with a candy bar known as a Smoothie as a kid, never to eat another. 

I earned some money as a kid (I think shoveling snow) and spent it on a ton of Lik M Aid (flavored powdered sugar, which also came in straws called Pixy Stix).  I ate enough to make me sick and I could never look at anything resembling flavored powdered sugar again.

Had to have a procedure that required a product called "Purge". Essentially castor oil with lemon flavor. So after the predictable effects, I could not consume anything lemon for years. The sad thing is, plain castor oil would have been just as effective and I would only have had a distaste for castor oil.

 

[rsc2a]

What about castrol oil?

 

[subllibrm]

What about castrol oil?

I prefer Valvoline!  ;D

 

[ALAYMAN]

And I would not suggest that all are or that even those who are guilty are guilty all of the time. I am thankful that I was blessed with wise mentoring as a new believer. I am thankful that I have been given the ability (literally given because it surely isn't natural for me) to assume that there is another side to the story and will seek to understand the "why" of what transpired. I am also thankful that I have learned that grace is a two way street. So when I come across that injured/insulted/hurting individual I start with a process of questioning the details of the situation, their actions and offering the suggestion that it may be more misunderstanding than intentional harm. I direct them to Matthew 18. I offer advice on how to broach the subject. I offer to go with them. And I remind them that finding the truth and reconciliation is more important than winning the fight. Some respond and go through the process many don't. What I don't do with those who won't (or can't) is to write them off to the trash heap of hopeless babies who couldn't "man up". As long as they have breath there is the possibility of reconciliation. Burnt bridges and scorched earth are not evidence of grace from either side of the fence.

I will give an example that is as basic as you can get. My wife helped with SS as a teen. The lead teacher did or said something to her that hurt her feelings. Now understand that this is long before I have come on the scene. Fast forward a decade and a conversation comes up between Mrs. sub and me. I suggest asking "Marge" for help on an event. Who knew that the scab was still there and tore off so easily!

After the venting subsided I suggested calling "Marge" and getting this settled and behind them.  "What? That was ten years ago, she'd think I was nuts for still being upset". So I ask if she is going to ask Marge to help. No way she says. I point out that there are two choices, deal with it with Marge and get it settled or apply the point you just made and let it go after ten years. Oh, and my hunch is that Marge neither remembers the event nor was it intentional at the time. So the only one it is hurting is you.

Now before I am accused of being hypocritical for telling my wife to "suck it up" the point is that I took the time to listen to her story, walk her through the thought process and options and didn't just throw the "grow up " grenade at her.  Same process worked well raising my kids too. They refer to it as me "talking them down off the wall". Still get phone calls asking how to handle situations. Still tell them to start with giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. They trust me because they  know I will take their hurt seriously. Seriously enough to help them diagnose it honestly. Discuss it through and tell them when they have remodeled the mole hill with mountain size adornments.

BTW did I mention that I am thankful for the wise mentors that God put in my life early? 

That was a good post.  The only things I'll raise by way of objection is that some of what the article was alluding to was not just the people who were hurt by the fundys/evangelicals, but some that just didn't like to tow the line of conservatism and took the easy way out, giving no heed to whether their conduct is Scriptural.  And secondly, if the shoe don't fit then there's no need to worry about applying the author's criticism.  But I think to dismiss him as being harsh is to deny that even in the Scriptures there are plenty of harsh admonitions given to the people of God who were going wayward, ie, "I speak to your shame".  There's a time and place for "shots across the bow", written to a suitable general audience.

 

[subllibrm]

That was a good post.  The only things I'll raise by way of objection is that some of what the article was alluding to was not just the people who were hurt by the fundys/evangelicals, but some that just didn't like to tow the line of conservatism and took the easy way out, giving no heed to whether their conduct is Scriptural.  And secondly, if the shoe don't fit then there's no need to worry about applying the author's criticism.  But I think to dismiss him as being harsh is to deny that even in the Scriptures there are plenty of harsh admonitions given to the people of God who were going wayward, ie, "I speak to your shame".  There's a time and place for "shots across the bow", written to a suitable general audience.

As I said elsewhere recently, one of the problems with the modern American church is that we have stopped preaching about hell. So I am not opposed to speaking a "harsh" truth. I also believe that too much "questionable" behavior is overlooked (I despise the "pastor is a speed demon" jokes and radar detectors in Christians cars. But I digress) and there is too much coarse language deemed acceptable. I also believe that there is true rebellion alive and well in most churches. But I don't think that it is the person who marches out of step with the cultural norms of dress and such but rather the gossips and backbiters and those who would undermine the efforts of the church leadership. And I have a strong suspicion that the ones who are really rebellious are the ones busy pointing out the flaws in the way other people dress, raise their kids, participate in ministry programs and whatever else they can come up with to distract from their own subterfuge. I have no doubt that the worst rebel in a church may be the Pastor or the deacon board chairman (Asbestos suit is in place. Flame on!).

All that to say, there are true malcontents who have left the church and have nothing better to do that mock and complain (SFL being a perfect place to study the phenomenon). Folks who likely never were believers but learned enough growing up in the church to twist scripture and make what appear to be reasonable observations to those who have a weaker grasp of scriptural truth.

At the same time there are true children of the King who have been hurt by the brethren and deserve our efforts to comfort and bring them back into the fold. Our first responsibility is to God. To worship Him and bring glory to His name. Our responsibility to our fellow man is to bring the message of reconciliation. Our responsibility to each other in the church is to build each other up. We need to have a heart that breaks for those who are broken.

A final thought just kind of jumped into my head. When a Christian man or woman comes to the church with sin in their life and confess it, we usually respond with great tenderness and joy that God is continuing to work to bring them home. IOW they come to us with self inflicted wounds and we want to bind their hurts and be a balm of healing.

Would it not be wonderful if we responded in the same manner to those that are suffering from a hurt not of their own doing? Pastors, elders, deacons, department heads and general pew warmers, could you bring yourself to the place where you would say "I am sorry for the pain I caused you. I know that I am the one who is responsible and want to make it right. First by apologizing and then by doing what I can to help repair the trust that I have broken." ?

That would be the kind of radical action that would change the world. Again.

 

[rsc2a]

A final thought just kind of jumped into my head. When a Christian man or woman comes to the church with sin in their life and confess it, we usually respond with great tenderness and joy that God is continuing to work to bring them home. IOW they come to us with self inflicted wounds and we want to bind their hurts and be a balm of healing.

Well at least some sins. And depending on the person confessing.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And I would not suggest that all are or that even those who are guilty are guilty all of the time. I am thankful that I was blessed with wise mentoring as a new believer. I am thankful that I have been given the ability (literally given because it surely isn't natural for me) to assume that there is another side to the story and will seek to understand the "why" of what transpired. I am also thankful that I have learned that grace is a two way street. So when I come across that injured/insulted/hurting individual I start with a process of questioning the details of the situation, their actions and offering the suggestion that it may be more misunderstanding than intentional harm. I direct them to Matthew 18. I offer advice on how to broach the subject. I offer to go with them. And I remind them that finding the truth and reconciliation is more important than winning the fight. Some respond and go through the process many don't. What I don't do with those who won't (or can't) is to write them off to the trash heap of hopeless babies who couldn't "man up". As long as they have breath there is the possibility of reconciliation. Burnt bridges and scorched earth are not evidence of grace from either side of the fence.

I will give an example that is as basic as you can get. My wife helped with SS as a teen. The lead teacher did or said something to her that hurt her feelings. Now understand that this is long before I have come on the scene. Fast forward a decade and a conversation comes up between Mrs. sub and me. I suggest asking "Marge" for help on an event. Who knew that the scab was still there and tore off so easily!

After the venting subsided I suggested calling "Marge" and getting this settled and behind them.  "What? That was ten years ago, she'd think I was nuts for still being upset". So I ask if she is going to ask Marge to help. No way she says. I point out that there are two choices, deal with it with Marge and get it settled or apply the point you just made and let it go after ten years. Oh, and my hunch is that Marge neither remembers the event nor was it intentional at the time. So the only one it is hurting is you.

Now before I am accused of being hypocritical for telling my wife to "suck it up" the point is that I took the time to listen to her story, walk her through the thought process and options and didn't just throw the "grow up " grenade at her.  Same process worked well raising my kids too. They refer to it as me "talking them down off the wall". Still get phone calls asking how to handle situations. Still tell them to start with giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. They trust me because they  know I will take their hurt seriously. Seriously enough to help them diagnose it honestly. Discuss it through and tell them when they have remodeled the mole hill with mountain size adornments.

BTW did I mention that I am thankful for the wise mentors that God put in my life early? 

That was a good post.  The only things I'll raise by way of objection is that some of what the article was alluding to was not just the people who were hurt by the fundys/evangelicals, but some that just didn't like to tow the line of conservatism and took the easy way out, giving no heed to whether their conduct is Scriptural.  And secondly, if the shoe don't fit then there's no need to worry about applying the author's criticism.  But I think to dismiss him as being harsh is to deny that even in the Scriptures there are plenty of harsh admonitions given to the people of God who were going wayward, ie, "I speak to your shame".  There's a time and place for "shots across the bow", written to a suitable general audience.

Lies hurt! Lies continually hurt! Lies damn. Lies destroy.

Why can't it just be about hating the endless lies found in fundamentalism? We fellowship in the Truth. Not in LIES.

Lies have wounded many people that claimed conservative fundamentalism,

 

[ALAYMAN]

Lies hurt! Lies continually hurt! Lies damn. Lies destroy.

Why can't it just be about hating the endless lies found in fundamentalism? We fellowship in the Truth. Not in LIES.

Lies have wounded many people that claimed conservative fundamentalism,

Lies are far from the exclusive domain of fundys and conservative evangelicals, so if the reason a person hops from movement to movement and church to church is that they're looking for perfect people, well, good luck with that philosophy.  Truth be told, I think that's the true reason so many people cop-out and quit attending church.  Well, that, and carnality.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Lies hurt! Lies continually hurt! Lies damn. Lies destroy.

Why can't it just be about hating the endless lies found in fundamentalism? We fellowship in the Truth. Not in LIES.

Lies have wounded many people that claimed conservative fundamentalism,

Lies are far from the exclusive domain of fundys and conservative evangelicals, so if the reason a person hops from movement to movement and church to church is that they're looking for perfect people, well, good luck with that philosophy.  Truth be told, I think that's the true reason so many people cop-out and quit attending church.  Well, that, and carnality.

Not speaking on behalf of everybody this applies to but the people I know who have left churches in frustration aren't looking for perfect people, they are looking for authentic people, open about their failures, flaws and struggles, willing to accept others with failures, flaws and struggles without feeling judged.

 

[Route_70]

...Truth be told, I think ... the true reason so many people cop-out and quit attending church ... carnality.

Since when is it a requirement for a person who wants to engage in carnality, that he drop out of church?  You apparently haven't been to church in a while.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Not speaking on behalf of everybody this applies to but the people I know who have left churches in frustration aren't looking for perfect people, they are looking for authentic people, open about their cigar use, beer swillin', and edgy self-centered lifestyles without feeling judged.



Fixed it for ya. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

...Truth be told, I think ... the true reason so many people cop-out and quit attending church ... carnality.

Since when is it a requirement for a person who wants to engage in carnality, that he drop out of church?  You apparently haven't been to church in a while.

Satan has lots of counterfeits that  would deceive even the very elect, if only he could.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Not speaking on behalf of everybody this applies to but the people I know who have left churches in frustration aren't looking for perfect people, they are looking for authentic people, open about their cigar use, beer swillin', and edgy self-centered lifestyles without feeling judged.



Fixed it for ya. 

No doubt for some, that would be the case but there are many, many out there where this isn't the case. Remember, they are leaving the Evangelical churches as well as those that have such standards, so it isn't entirely about dos and don'ts.

 

[Route_70]

Not speaking on behalf of everybody this applies to but the people I know who have left churches in frustration aren't looking for perfect people, they are looking for authentic people, open about their cigar use, beer swillin', and edgy self-centered lifestyles without feeling judged.

Those people need to get right with God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Lies hurt! Lies continually hurt! Lies damn. Lies destroy.

Why can't it just be about hating the endless lies found in fundamentalism? We fellowship in the Truth. Not in LIES.

Lies have wounded many people that claimed conservative fundamentalism,

Lies are far from the exclusive domain of fundys and conservative evangelicals, so if the reason a person hops from movement to movement and church to church is that they're looking for perfect people, well, good luck with that philosophy.  Truth be told, I think that's the true reason so many people cop-out and quit attending church.  Well, that, and carnality.

Oh, I'm not looking for perfect people. Just perfect doctrine. I never said fundamentalist were exclusively liars. Don't excuse bad behavior by pointing at other bad behavior.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not speaking on behalf of everybody this applies to but the people I know who have left churches in frustration aren't looking for perfect people, they are looking for authentic people.  And if some of them happen to smoke cigars and drink beer, so what?  Christianity isn't about NOT smoking cigars and NOT drinking beer.



Fixed it for ya. 

Fixed it for you.

 

[subllibrm]

I knew it! They left the church because the church always gets the cheap beer for the men's outings! No wonder they are hurt. 8)

 

[ALAYMAN]

I knew it! They left the church because the church always gets the cheap beer for the men's outings! No wonder they are hurt. 8)

You jest, but the truth inherent to your humor (and part of the OPs point as well) is that the Young-Restless-and-Reformed types promote such a flippant approach to Christianity, rather than a sober and sacrificial life that elevates the proclamation of the gospel over our own personal preferences and liberties.