God and Government

[christundivided]

...As for the OP, I don't believe God controls our government at all.  We have what we elected and now we have to deal with it and do our best to turn the ship around again.

I agree with much of your post, except the apparent protest against the death penalty, and this last statement that God is not active in the affairs of men collectively governing our country.  I suppose I would want to hear a further explanation of what you mean when you say that He doesn't control it at all, but I think the fact that God cares about the sparrow falling to the ground indicates that His providential hand extends to even minute details of the lives of His creation, government(s) not exempted.

Knowing a sparrow falls to the ground and divinely intervening to catching, or reviving that sparrow are entirely two different things.

The facts are, God sets limits. God defines boundaries. This is what we call the "natural order" of this world. Man operates within those boundaries. Often, just as they please. Yes, Sometimes God intervenes. Yes, sometimes God doesn't. Sometimes, there really isn't any noticeable "rhythm or reason" to such actions. Yet, I am certain there are.

Ultimately, it will not go beyond God's own divine choice/will. Yet, it clear, at least to me, that it is also God's choice/will that man make his own choices. Exert his own will.

 

[ThatGirl]

...As for the OP, I don't believe God controls our government at all.  We have what we elected and now we have to deal with it and do our best to turn the ship around again.

I agree with much of your post, except the apparent protest against the death penalty, and this last statement that God is not active in the affairs of men collectively governing our country.  I suppose I would want to hear a further explanation of what you mean when you say that He doesn't control it at all, but I think the fact that God cares about the sparrow falling to the ground indicates that His providential hand extends to even minute details of the lives of His creation, government(s) not exempted.

I'm more interested in hearing why you seem to think God is involved in our government?  There is no scripture to back that up.  We have the people that we have elected.  You (or someone, it might not have been you) suggested that God was punishing us with this government.  Really?  This is a liberal socialists dream of a government.  No punishment there.  So God is punishing those who voted and tried to make things different?  That just doesn't even make good logical sense.

Some people believe that capital punishment is an extreme exertion of state power and is of little use in a free society, while it is of great use to a tyrannical government. Many believe that penal justice in general should not exist, that only restorative justice is valid. On this view, all penalties, including capital punishment, should be abolished.  Capital punishment may be seen as a corollary of an individual right to self-defense against a dangerous criminal. However, those who disagree argue that to kill a prisoner with premeditation can never be equivalent to fighting back in the heat of an attack.  There is also the fundamental problem of the possibility of error, or even outright framing of the accused. To this effect, lack of trust in government to make decisions (including life-and-death decisions) competently or for the best motives may confound the issue.  And lets face it, our government has proven to be incompetent many times over.  Are you willing to trust them with the destruction of human life?  Is that why our government exists?

We have given too much power to a government that was designed to do so little.  Enforce legal contracts and defend our rights.  Not a lot of defense of rights going on and a whole lot of nannying taking it's place.

And to Timothy...not in this thread but in another recently you basically suggested that as long as we aren't doing anything wrong then we shouldn't mind government intrusions.  I didn't comment in that thread because I was too astonished by your ignorance.  You need to brush up on your government history.  Read the founding documents (the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Mayflower Compact and the Federalist Papers) they can all be found online or at your local library, and learn what your government is NOT designed to do.

http://freedomoutpost.com/2012/11/what-is-not-the-job-of-the-us-government/   

 

[Izdaari]

How much exactly does God control our governmental leadership?

Hmm. This isn't something I've ever tried to articulate before, but here's what I think:

God is in control of the final outcome, but those He uses to that end may belong to the Enemy.

The Jewish and Roman governments of the 1st century seemed to be under the control of the Prince of this World, who no doubt chortled gleefully as the plot to crucify Jesus succeeded. Yet God had the last laugh, using their own plot to defeat them!

Just as today, our government seems to be under the control of the Powers and Principalities, but we've already read the ending of the story: God wins, Satan loses. So Uncle Sam is not necessarily our friend, but may, despite another intent entirely, be accomplishing God's purposes. So, do we owe our government our respect? Sure, the same respect we owe Judas and Pilate.

 

[Ransom]

I'm more interested in hearing why you seem to think God is involved in our government?  There is no scripture to back that up.

Scripture has already been posted to the effect that God's hand is on the heart of a king and directs his choices.

Why should we assume that God's hand is on monarchs, but not presidents, senators, or prime ministers? Regardless of how they achieved authority, the fact remains that they govern.

 

[ThatGirl]

I'm more interested in hearing why you seem to think God is involved in our government?  There is no scripture to back that up.

Scripture has already been posted to the effect that God's hand is on the heart of a king and directs his choices.

Why should we assume that God's hand is on monarchs, but not presidents, senators, or prime ministers? Regardless of how they achieved authority, the fact remains that they govern.

We've already established that we don't have kings.  Our governmental system is of the people by the people and for the people.  Elected officials are not authority, we are.  Elected officials are representatives of what the people want.  Right now we are being ruled by servants who act as masters.  They have taken authority that doesn't belong to them and due to ignorance we the people have allowed it to go on for too long but people are starting to wake up and realize that we need to take our government back. 

The problem is that you are delegating authority to the wrong people in our nation.  It belongs to the people.  Man's greatest enemy has always been his very own government.  It's not poverty, ignorance, disease or war. It's man's own government that causes those horrible conditions.  That is why our country was formed with the understanding that government officials are to be obedient servants to the people, not the other way around. 

Our founding fathers were inspired by one principle so fantastic and so revolutionary that no government had ever been based on it before. This glorious principle became, and remains to this day, the very essence of Americanism. This great secret was and is that rights don't come from a government.  We have certain inalienable rights just because we breathe.  And the governments job is to provide defense of those rights, not systematically dismantle them and tell us how we can and cannot live.  But that is what they are now doing because they have assumed authority and we, in our ignorance, have handed it to them. 

So, if God's hand is on authority figures then in America he needs to be guiding we the people and not government officials because we aren't going to get back on track until we realize our proper function of our government.  And I think we are seeing a stirring in people to remember the foundations of our country.  It's slow and it's hard to get people to move out of the idea that government is our authority but slowly people are getting it.  That is why the Libertarian party is growing so quickly in our country.   

 

[Ransom]

We've already established that we don't have kings.

Never mind just restating your assertions and avoiding my question. Why should we assume that God's hand is on monarchs, but not presidents, senators, or prime ministers? Regardless of how they achieved authority, the fact remains that they govern.

 

[ThatGirl]

We've already established that we don't have kings.

Never mind just restating your assertions and avoiding my question. Why should we assume that God's hand is on monarchs, but not presidents, senators, or prime ministers? Regardless of how they achieved authority, the fact remains that they govern.

I didn't avoid your question.  I gave a very detailed answer to you showing you that first of all you were placing authority on the wrong people.  If we want God to help this country then he needs to have his hand on the people who were meant to run this country, we the people.  Go back and read because you obviously missed it. 

 

[Izdaari]

We've already established that we don't have kings.

Never mind just restating your assertions and avoiding my question. Why should we assume that God's hand is on monarchs, but not presidents, senators, or prime ministers? Regardless of how they achieved authority, the fact remains that they govern.

They govern, but they do not govern well, not honestly, not competently, not constitutionally and not with the public's interest in mind rather than their own. So not as though God's hand was on them... at least, not unless He's trying to make them screw up.

But then I guess Herod, the Sanhedrin and Pilate didn't govern well either, but it all worked out for the best. And maybe it will this time too.

 

[ThatGirl]

We've already established that we don't have kings.

Never mind just restating your assertions and avoiding my question. Why should we assume that God's hand is on monarchs, but not presidents, senators, or prime ministers? Regardless of how they achieved authority, the fact remains that they govern.

They govern, but they do not govern well, not honestly, not competently, not constitutionally and not with the public's interest in mind rather than their own. So not as though God's hand was on them... at least, not unless He's trying to make them screw up.

But then I guess Herod, the Sanhedrin and Pilate didn't govern well either, but it all worked out for the best. And maybe it will this time too.

Yes, they govern but they aren't the authority.  "We the People" retain all Rights. The government only has certain powers that we granted to them.  This was a complete reversal from all governments prior to 1776. 

Remember, the Declaration of Independence states, among other things, that:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life,

Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

All of those in lawful governments are to be obedient servants! We must always demand this.  The question in the OP  was, "How much exactly does God control our governmental leadership?"  And then the conversation took a turn that reflects the wrongful way people have been lead to believe.  That we are to be subject to kings or presidents or whatever and that is exactly not what our country is about.  If God is to be involved in the leadership of this country then he needs to be involved with the people because we are the authority here, so we can elect those who understand our values and rights and so we can have the guts to dismantle and rebuild a corrupt government as per our right. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Yes, they govern but they aren't the authority.  "We the People" retain all Rights. The government only has certain powers that we granted to them.  This was a complete reversal from all governments prior to 1776. 

Remember, the Declaration of Independence states, among other things, that:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life,

Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

All of those in lawful governments are to be obedient servants! We must always demand this.  The question in the OP  was, "How much exactly does God control our governmental leadership?"  And then the conversation took a turn that reflects the wrongful way people have been lead to believe.  That we are to be subject to kings or presidents or whatever and that is exactly not what our country is about.  If God is to be involved in the leadership of this country then he needs to be involved with the people because we are the authority here, so we can elect those who understand our values and rights and so we can have the guts to dismantle and rebuild a corrupt government as per our right.

The real irony in your analysis of the extent that God is involved with government is that in the same way that "we the people" elected a two-time abortionist gay-friendly president, Israel chose Saul over God, and God granted their wishes.  In attempting to explain how God's sovereignty intersects with man's free choice C.S. Lewis stated it well...

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it."

 

[ALAYMAN]

...As for the OP, I don't believe God controls our government at all.  We have what we elected and now we have to deal with it and do our best to turn the ship around again.

I agree with much of your post, except the apparent protest against the death penalty, and this last statement that God is not active in the affairs of men collectively governing our country.  I suppose I would want to hear a further explanation of what you mean when you say that He doesn't control it at all, but I think the fact that God cares about the sparrow falling to the ground indicates that His providential hand extends to even minute details of the lives of His creation, government(s) not exempted.

Knowing a sparrow falls to the ground and divinely intervening to catching, or reviving that sparrow are entirely two different things.

The facts are, God sets limits. God defines boundaries. This is what we call the "natural order" of this world. Man operates within those boundaries. Often, just as they please. Yes, Sometimes God intervenes. Yes, sometimes God doesn't. Sometimes, there really isn't any noticeable "rhythm or reason" to such actions. Yet, I am certain there are.

Ultimately, it will not go beyond God's own divine choice/will. Yet, it clear, at least to me, that it is also God's choice/will that man make his own choices. Exert his own will.

Mat 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

"without your Father" speaks more to his active providential will than to a passive bystander.

 

[Ransom]

I didn't avoid your question.  I gave a very detailed answer to you showing you that first of all you were placing authority on the wrong people.

Well, thank you ever so much for the most enlightening lecture on republican political theory.

However, I believe we all understand, colloquially, that the "government" is not Joe Voter living at 123 Everyman St. who welds sheet metal 40 hours a week - it is those citizens who have been elected to public office and, therefore, have been granted the authority to collect taxes, pass laws, make treaties, declare war, and so forth.

When we complain that the government is corrupt or incompetent, we are not speaking of Joe Voter or the rest of We The People. Neither is Solomon or Paul.

So we come back to my question again: Why should we assume that God's hand is on monarchs, but not presidents, senators, or prime ministers? Regardless of how they achieved authority, the fact remains that they govern.

Please stop filibustering, and answer my question.

 

[Izdaari]

I didn't avoid your question.  I gave a very detailed answer to you showing you that first of all you were placing authority on the wrong people.

Well, thank you ever so much for the most enlightening lecture on republican political theory.

However, I believe we all understand, colloquially, that the "government" is not Joe Voter living at 123 Everyman St. who welds sheet metal 40 hours a week - it is those citizens who have been elected to public office and, therefore, have been granted the authority to collect taxes, pass laws, make treaties, declare war, and so forth.

When we complain that the government is corrupt or incompetent, we are not speaking of Joe Voter or the rest of We The People. Neither is Solomon or Paul.

So we come back to my question again: Why should we assume that God's hand is on monarchs, but not presidents, senators, or prime ministers? Regardless of how they achieved authority, the fact remains that they govern.

Please stop filibustering, and answer my question.

Ransom, maybe you should define your terms. What does it really mean to say God's hand is on them? It obviously isn't making them govern well. I've given a previous example of how God can use bad government to good ends, but I'm not getting the impression that's what you mean.

 

[ThatGirl]

I didn't avoid your question.  I gave a very detailed answer to you showing you that first of all you were placing authority on the wrong people.

Well, thank you ever so much for the most enlightening lecture on republican political theory.

However, I believe we all understand, colloquially, that the "government" is not Joe Voter living at 123 Everyman St. who welds sheet metal 40 hours a week - it is the people who have been elected to political office and therefore have the authority to collect taxes, pass laws, make treaties, declare war, and so forth.

When we complain that the government is corrupt or incompetent, we are not speaking of Joe Voter.

So we come back to my question again: Why should we assume that God's hand is on monarchs, but not presidents, senators, or prime ministers? Regardless of how they achieved authority, the fact remains that they govern.

Please stop filibustering, and answer my question.

I don't think you're really paying attention to what I said.  First of all, this is not "republican political theory".  Republicans are just as corrupt and attempting to control the people.  What I gave you was an explanation of how our government was designed to work.  But don't take my word for it, read The Federalist Papers.     

No one said that the government is "Joe Voter".  I said that that "Joe Voter" is the real authority here, not the government.  "We the People" retain all Rights. The government only has certain powers that we granted to them.  I will repeat myself...The question in the OP  was, "How much exactly does God control our governmental leadership?"  And then the conversation took a turn that reflects the wrong way people have been lead to believe.  That we are to be subject to kings or presidents or whatever and that is exactly not what our country is about.  If God is to be involved in the leadership of this country then he needs to be involved with the people because we are the authority here, so we can elect those who understand our values and rights and so we can have the guts to dismantle and rebuild a corrupt government as per our right.   

 

[ALAYMAN]

No one said that the government is "Joe Voter".  I said that that "Joe Voter" is the real authority here, not the government.

Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.


Whether the government is acting in accordance with the prescriptive will of God, or actively attempting to reject its rightfully ordained purpose, it is given such power by God.  How can that not be explicitly understood from this verse?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ThatGirl]I don't think you're really paying attention to what I said.  First of all, this is not "republican political theory".  Republicans are just as corrupt and attempting to control the people.  What I gave you was an explanation of how our government was designed to work.  But don't take my word for it, read The Federalist Papers...[/quote]

:-\

 

[Ransom]

I don't think you're really paying attention to what I said.  First of all, this is not "republican political theory".  Republicans are just as corrupt and attempting to control the people.

If you don't know the difference between a republican system of government and the Republican Party, maybe it doesn't actually matter if I'm paying attention.

No one said that the government is "Joe Voter".  I said that that "Joe Voter" is the real authority here, not the government.

So when Paul told Christians to be subject to the "governing authorities" (Rom. 13:1), which one was he speaking of? (Hint: It's the one that bears the sword, punishes evildoers and collects taxes.)

 

[rsc2a]

I don't think you're really paying attention to what I said.  First of all, this is not "republican political theory".  Republicans are just as corrupt and attempting to control the people.

If you don't know the difference between a republican system of government and the Republican Party, maybe it doesn't actually matter if I'm paying attention.

I pledge allegiance to the flag, and to the Republic for which it stands....

 

[ThatGirl]

I don't think you're really paying attention to what I said.  First of all, this is not "republican political theory".  Republicans are just as corrupt and attempting to control the people.

If you don't know the difference between a republican system of government and the Republican Party, maybe it doesn't actually matter if I'm paying attention.

No one said that the government is "Joe Voter".  I said that that "Joe Voter" is the real authority here, not the government.

So when Paul told Christians to be subject to the "governing authorities" (Rom. 13:1), which one was he speaking of? (Hint: It's the one that bears the sword, punishes evildoers and collects taxes.)

You know, You don't have to be rude.  Of course I know the difference but I thought YOU were talking about the republican party.  I thought you were personally referring to me as a republican.  Not speaking of the republic. 

In America it is the people who "hold the sword".  Or it's supposed to be.  And this is the point I feel you are missing.  God grants rights to man, then man grants certain powers to government. This means that man is the legitimate boss or master of all lawful governments in the United States of America. This is the fundamental principle of law: The creator is always superior to the creation. Man should always be pointing "the sword" at government, not the other way around.

When Paul told Christians to submit to the governing authorities there was no concept of governments that were designed to be obedient servants to the people.  In our nation our elected officials are the ones who are to submit to the people.  And if they don't we have the right to alter or abolish it.  That wouldn't have been the case in any government system that Paul knew about. 

American principles of government have been lost and/or forgotten since the War Between the States. They must be relearned and re-applied to every law, rule, regulation, code, court decision, etc., made by those at all levels of the so-called governments in America today. 

 

[Ransom]

You know, You don't have to be rude.  Of course I know the difference but I thought YOU were talking about the republican party.

So it's OK for you to assume I'm ignorant, but you're offended when it's reciprocated?

In America it is the people who "hold the sword".

So "the people" have the power to declare war? No. It's the elected officials in Congress.

Do "the people" have the ability to sentence criminals to death? No, elected judges do.

As I said . . .

Man should always be pointing "the sword" at government, not the other way around.

"The sword" in Romans 13 is a metaphor for the authority of those in power to punish evil - not the threat of overthrow or un-election.

When Paul told Christians to submit to the governing authorities there was no concept of governments that were designed to be obedient servants to the people.

And so you are unable to reasonably extraploate that Paul's teaching on government might also be applicable to other forms of government than an emperor?