Going to church and apprehension surrounding it.....

[AverageJoe]

There have been times in my life when I have found myself wanting to go to church, greatly looking forward to it, yet still having a feeling of apprehension about being there. It's not because I'm committing any sin, or afraid of hearing a message on sin, or even salvation. I, at times, had these feelings years ago in my youth, and at times in my young, married life. But, I've noticed since my wife and I experienced the VID virus again in August/September, both my wife and I have had periods of apprehension about being in our church. Granted, we didn't have much contact with people during our period of illness...seemed our church had left us flat in the dust, and we definitely didn't have any contact with our pastor....could this be part of the reason? We have felt for a while now that the Lord could probably use us elsewhere, and have, at times VISITED other churches. We love the people in our church, the pastor and his family, and the fact that they are actively seeking to present the Gospel to others. I thought I'd ask if anyone else has ever had this kind of experience? I know it can't be that uncommon. Input would be appreciated.

 

[ALAYMAN]

You ask a tough question, hard to answer without more info, so consider this a shot in the dark to narrow the field...


Are you a "people person"? In other words, do you look forward to church (as you alluded to in times past in the OP) in part because you like to see certain (or all) brothers and sisters? Or is the the purpose for going to church extensively more in the realm of being fed by the word and enjoying praise in song?

 

[AverageJoe]

You ask a tough question, hard to answer without more info, so consider this a shot in the dark to narrow the field...


Are you a "people person"? In other words, do you look forward to church (as you alluded to in times past in the OP) in part because you like to see certain (or all) brothers and sisters? Or is the the purpose for going to church extensively more in the realm of being fed by the word and enjoying praise in song?

We are people who like to fellowship and make friends with others. We don't often get to where we feel any kind of apprehension about going to church. We were out for nearly six months because of the "long covid" I have and the constant breathing, hearing and other challenges that came with this. My wife has some long-term challenges from the covid, but not nearly as bad as what I have. Everyone at church is friendly, and as I stated, we truly love the people there. I believe most of the apprehension may have come because the pastors lack of contact. Also, we have noticed in the past few services that the nepotism in the church has grown very strong for such a small church with the pastor preaching, his wife becoming the worship leader after the brother of the assistant pastor, who was the worship leaders, resigned and left in a tiff, and then our appointed deacon being the FIL of the assistant pastor. One of the other deacons SIL is the treasurer for the church, and another deacon is heading up other areas of ministry. There really isn't much opportunity for service unless one is in this "crowd" or is heavy into sports. We're no longer in that category. Yet, we're still not sure that is it either. We started feeling a prompting to leave this church back in July. But, the Lord hasn't opened the doors for us to go anywhere else yet.

 

[ALAYMAN]

We are people who like to fellowship and make friends with others. We don't often get to where we feel any kind of apprehension about going to church. We were out for nearly six months because of the "long covid" I have and the constant breathing, hearing and other challenges that came with this. My wife has some long-term challenges from the covid, but not nearly as bad as what I have. Everyone at church is friendly, and as I stated, we truly love the people there. I believe most of the apprehension may have come because the pastors lack of contact. Also, we have noticed in the past few services that the nepotism in the church has grown very strong for such a small church with the pastor preaching, his wife becoming the worship leader after the brother of the assistant pastor, who was the worship leaders, resigned and left in a tiff, and then our appointed deacon being the FIL of the assistant pastor. One of the other deacons SIL is the treasurer for the church, and another deacon is heading up other areas of ministry. There really isn't much opportunity for service unless one is in this "crowd" or is heavy into sports. We're no longer in that category. Yet, we're still not sure that is it either. We started feeling a prompting to leave this church back in July. But, the Lord hasn't opened the doors for us to go anywhere else yet.

The nepotism thing is a hard one to deal with because when it happens it is so ingrained and is such a touchy issue to broach with leadership, expecially if that sort of culture precludes nearly anybody else from meaningful service. Without getting wordy, I have always found that the best way to solve problems (not that it always works efficiently) is to be open and communicative with those I wished to have a dialogue with. In this case, that may be a hard ask, but if any headway is to be made with the staff it will have to be made aware to them what the issue/problem is. That serves two practical and purposeful goals. First, it makes them aware of the problem that they may not have a clue is an issue, and secondly, if they have any character and integrity (regardless of whether your problem is solved by them) it warns them that other people may potentially be experiencing the same disconnect you are and it signals them that if they want to head that kind of thing off for other folk there in the pews (or future additions to the congregation) that they may want to evaluate their leadership effectiveness.

 

[AverageJoe]

The nepotism thing is a hard one to deal with because when it happens it is so ingrained and is such a touchy issue to broach with leadership, expecially if that sort of culture precludes nearly anybody else from meaningful service. Without getting wordy, I have always found that the best way to solve problems (not that it always works efficiently) is to be open and communicative with those I wished to have a dialogue with. In this case, that may be a hard ask, but if any headway is to be made with the staff it will have to be made aware to them what the issue/problem is. That serves two practical and purposeful goals. First, it makes them aware of the problem that they may not have a clue is an issue, and secondly, if they have any character and integrity (regardless of whether your problem is solved by them) it warns them that other people may potentially be experiencing the same disconnect you are and it signals them that if they want to head that kind of thing off for other folk there in the pews (or future additions to the congregation) that they may want to evaluate their leadership effectiveness.

We've approached our pastor about this before, and we've been told we're "upset" (believe me, we're not upset, but concerned because we've seen how it usually plays out) about nothing. "We're ALL brothers and sisters here," is the usual put-off statement. It's like talking to a brick wall, and I see no change coming anytime soon. Those of us who have mentioned these concerns are usually ostracized, and many have already left and started a couple of other churches. We've been encouraged by a friend and former member of the FFF in the "good ol' days" who is a pastor of an SBC church in Murfreesboro to come and visit. We may try that in the near future. It's 20 miles further away, but if might be where we need to be. We had considered joining a local Cowboy Church, which I have been involved in off and on for the past two years, but we don't feel the Lord leading us in that direction. As I've stated before, we've been with this church since early 2016, and we really don't relish the idea of leaving it, but believe it might be time.

 

[ALAYMAN]

It really sounds like your apprehension may be because in your mind you already sense that God is leading you elsewhere. I'll continue to pray for you that He leads you to a place where you can worship and serve Him.

 

[illinoisguy]

Here is some general advice that may be applicable to Average Joe and all of us: If you have a problem with something in the church (nepotism or anything else), and you share your concerns in a polite, private manner with the leadership of the church, and as a result they place you on the enemies list and brand you as a troublemaker and emissary of Satan and troubler of Israel - then you should probably leave.

If you share your concerns in this manner, and the leadership listens to you with respect and are not out to get you, then it may be worthwhile to stay with such a church, even if they do not decide to adopt your suggestions.

I am not sure if nepotism is automatically bad, especially if it is a small church where there are only a few people who can do the things that need to be done. Yes, nepotism can sometimes be bad. I was in a church where the son of a beloved pastor, who left 20 years earlier, was called to be the pastor. All of us were enthusiastic about calling him - we assumed that it would be a case of like father, like son. The son turned out to be a dictatorial bully and he ran off a lot of people who had supported him, including me.

 

[Norefund]

"Granted, we didn't have much contact with people during our period of illness...seemed our church had left us flat in the dust, and we definitely didn't have any contact with our pastor....could this be part of the reason?"
I have no more insight into your situation than what I am about to offer. During the early days of Covid, a husband and wife with multiple children that are in our church and small group were infected and became ill - not hospital ill but very bad flu type ill. We rose to the challenge and setup a meal schedule with the rest of our group to provide them meals and whatever else they needed for a couple of weeks. A few months later another couple in our group got ill and we offered but they said they could do OK without any help. Then another couple in our group got ill and we prayed for them.
I tell you this story to illustrate that I think we are all just kind of jaded and tired of Covid now and it isn't so uncommon anymore. It doesn't provoke the same response as it did in the beginning. Right or wrong - that's just how it is. Wrong mostly I guess because I should have been more diligent to make sure those in our group were taken care of and new we were committed to loving them. But, I didn't. We didn't. And your story of people in the church not really reaching out may be similar. I'm not excusing it, I'm not saying it should be that way - it shouldn't and I wish you and your wife would be telling a different story about how you were loved during this hardship.
But I also wish I wasn't guilty of the same behavior or lack thereof.

 

[AverageJoe]

"Granted, we didn't have much contact with people during our period of illness...seemed our church had left us flat in the dust, and we definitely didn't have any contact with our pastor....could this be part of the reason?"
I have no more insight into your situation than what I am about to offer. During the early days of Covid, a husband and wife with multiple children that are in our church and small group were infected and became ill - not hospital ill but very bad flu type ill. We rose to the challenge and setup a meal schedule with the rest of our group to provide them meals and whatever else they needed for a couple of weeks. A few months later another couple in our group got ill and we offered but they said they could do OK without any help. Then another couple in our group got ill and we prayed for them.
I tell you this story to illustrate that I think we are all just kind of jaded and tired of Covid now and it isn't so uncommon anymore. It doesn't provoke the same response as it did in the beginning. Right or wrong - that's just how it is. Wrong mostly I guess because I should have been more diligent to make sure those in our group were taken care of and new we were committed to loving them. But, I didn't. We didn't. And your story of people in the church not really reaching out may be similar. I'm not excusing it, I'm not saying it should be that way - it shouldn't and I wish you and your wife would be telling a different story about how you were loved during this hardship.
But I also wish I wasn't guilty of the same behavior or lack thereof.

That's just a minuscule part of the whole thing. We've been noticing changes ever since early 2019 after our first mini-split. I truly believe that one of the main issues that have concerned my wife and me outside of nepotism is that there's truly nowhere to serve. If you're not in this "in crowd" you're not able to be used, or so it seems. Being disabled hasn't helped as it seems to be a "hindrance" in the mind/eye of the leadership of the church. We've stayed because we just don't like to see people leave and to have us leave over issues like this. Yet, as one issue is continuing on, there are others that are entering. I don't know if it's just that the leadership of this church doesn't want to address certain things and to just go with the flow, or what. There's only so much that people inside the church are going to stand for. We plan on starting to visit other churches in two weeks.

 

[Norefund]

That's just a minuscule part of the whole thing. We've been noticing changes ever since early 2019 after our first mini-split. I truly believe that one of the main issues that have concerned my wife and me outside of nepotism is that there's truly nowhere to serve. If you're not in this "in crowd" you're not able to be used, or so it seems. Being disabled hasn't helped as it seems to be a "hindrance" in the mind/eye of the leadership of the church. We've stayed because we just don't like to see people leave and to have us leave over issues like this. Yet, as one issue is continuing on, there are others that are entering. I don't know if it's just that the leadership of this church doesn't want to address certain things and to just go with the flow, or what. There's only so much that people inside the church are going to stand for. We plan on starting to visit other churches in two weeks.

I get it. Change is hard. Changing who you gather with has an additional degree of difficulty. I wish you and your wife the best.

 

[Norefund]

That's just a minuscule part of the whole thing. We've been noticing changes ever since early 2019 after our first mini-split. I truly believe that one of the main issues that have concerned my wife and me outside of nepotism is that there's truly nowhere to serve. If you're not in this "in crowd" you're not able to be used, or so it seems. Being disabled hasn't helped as it seems to be a "hindrance" in the mind/eye of the leadership of the church. We've stayed because we just don't like to see people leave and to have us leave over issues like this. Yet, as one issue is continuing on, there are others that are entering. I don't know if it's just that the leadership of this church doesn't want to address certain things and to just go with the flow, or what. There's only so much that people inside the church are going to stand for. We plan on starting to visit other churches in two weeks.

I can't believe I missed the opportunity to post this.......

 

[Walt]

We are people who like to fellowship and make friends with others. We don't often get to where we feel any kind of apprehension about going to church. We were out for nearly six months because of the "long covid" I have and the constant breathing, hearing and other challenges that came with this. My wife has some long-term challenges from the covid, but not nearly as bad as what I have. Everyone at church is friendly, and as I stated, we truly love the people there. I believe most of the apprehension may have come because the pastors lack of contact. Also, we have noticed in the past few services that the nepotism in the church has grown very strong for such a small church with the pastor preaching, his wife becoming the worship leader after the brother of the assistant pastor, who was the worship leaders, resigned and left in a tiff, and then our appointed deacon being the FIL of the assistant pastor. One of the other deacons SIL is the treasurer for the church, and another deacon is heading up other areas of ministry. There really isn't much opportunity for service unless one is in this "crowd" or is heavy into sports. We're no longer in that category. Yet, we're still not sure that is it either. We started feeling a prompting to leave this church back in July. But, the Lord hasn't opened the doors for us to go anywhere else yet.

I'm sorry to read this... I trust you are back to good health now.
Perhaps the apprehension you feel is just because you've been out of fellowship for six months.
You write "the pastors [sic] lack of contact" - do you mean he NEVER texted you? Never called you? I can understand in this era not visiting someone at home; when I'm sick, I really don't want visitors.
Do you believe that the church is here to serve you? Or are you here to serve the church?
If the former worship leader left angry, perhaps the pastor is a bit worried about trusting someone he doesn't know.
I'm not sure what you meant by the pastor's father-in-law being "our appointed deacon"... does each member have a deacon assigned to them? (why, in a small church??)
I don't mean to sound bad, but a lot of this post reads as sour grapes... "waaa! they won't let me serve where I want to serve! waa! because they are full of nepotism!")
I assume that you've told the pastor you are willing to serve... or did you tell him that you'd only serve in positions that you want to serve in?

 

[Walt]

We've approached our pastor about this before, and we've been told we're "upset" (believe me, we're not upset, but concerned because we've seen how it usually plays out) about nothing. "We're ALL brothers and sisters here," is the usual put-off statement. It's like talking to a brick wall, and I see no change coming anytime soon. Those of us who have mentioned these concerns are usually ostracized, and many have already left and started a couple of other churches. We've been encouraged by a friend and former member of the FFF in the "good ol' days" who is a pastor of an SBC church in Murfreesboro to come and visit. We may try that in the near future. It's 20 miles further away, but if might be where we need to be. We had considered joining a local Cowboy Church, which I have been involved in off and on for the past two years, but we don't feel the Lord leading us in that direction. As I've stated before, we've been with this church since early 2016, and we really don't relish the idea of leaving it, but believe it might be time.

As Alayman (sorry, that should be Sir!) said, it is tricky when dealing with perceived nepotism. Suppose the pastor's son or brother really is the best qualified for a position? Does he not allow the best to serve just to avoid looking like nepotism? It IS hard - you don't want to not allow them to serve, but you don't want to evaluate them too highly because you know them.
It is a bit concerning when the pastor seems to ONLY surround himself with family members... it as always good to have good, honest people around even if they disagree with you.
Six years isn't really that long with a church... why did you go there in the first place? Did God show you that this church is the church? Or were you attracted by someone's personality? Or something else?
You say you've been involved in a Cowboy church for the last two years... that reads like a rather weak commitment to your current church.
I'm on your side that the pastor should not be putting you off or giving platitudes about your real concerns. He should address your issue... and it was good of you to bring it up.

 

[Walt]

Here is some general advice that may be applicable to Average Joe and all of us: If you have a problem with something in the church (nepotism or anything else), and you share your concerns in a polite, private manner with the leadership of the church, and as a result they place you on the enemies list and brand you as a troublemaker and emissary of Satan and troubler of Israel - then you should probably leave.

If you share your concerns in this manner, and the leadership listens to you with respect and are not out to get you, then it may be worthwhile to stay with such a church, even if they do not decide to adopt your suggestions.

I am not sure if nepotism is automatically bad, especially if it is a small church where there are only a few people who can do the things that need to be done. Yes, nepotism can sometimes be bad. I was in a church where the son of a beloved pastor, who left 20 years earlier, was called to be the pastor. All of us were enthusiastic about calling him - we assumed that it would be a case of like father, like son. The son turned out to be a dictatorial bully and he ran off a lot of people who had supported him, including me.

Good advice! Good post in general.

 

[Walt]

That's just a minuscule part of the whole thing. We've been noticing changes ever since early 2019 after our first mini-split. I truly believe that one of the main issues that have concerned my wife and me outside of nepotism is that there's truly nowhere to serve. If you're not in this "in crowd" you're not able to be used, or so it seems. Being disabled hasn't helped as it seems to be a "hindrance" in the mind/eye of the leadership of the church. We've stayed because we just don't like to see people leave and to have us leave over issues like this. Yet, as one issue is continuing on, there are others that are entering. I don't know if it's just that the leadership of this church doesn't want to address certain things and to just go with the flow, or what. There's only so much that people inside the church are going to stand for. We plan on starting to visit other churches in two weeks.

I hope you find a place you got get into and work with.

 

[AverageJoe]

I'm sorry to read this... I trust you are back to good health now.

We are somewhat back to previous health standards, though I have what they call "long covid".

Perhaps the apprehension you feel is just because you've been out of fellowship for six months.

We had fellowship with others inside and outside of the church membership.

You write "the pastors [sic] lack of contact" - do you mean he NEVER texted you? Never called you? I can understand in this era not visiting someone at home; when I'm sick, I really don't want visitors.

It was the ASSISTANT pastor's FIL, and yes, he is our assigned deacon. We ran, on average before COVID 100-150 a week. In our church deacons are assigned to a group of people. I totally understand not having visitors, and I'm not speaking of VISITING....nowhere do I recall mentioning anything about visiting. You seem to want to read into things what you wish.

Do you believe that the church is here to serve you? Or are you here to serve the church?

Good questions....No...I don't believe the church is basically here to serve us, nor do I believe that we are there to serve the church in totality. It should be a balance of both.

If the former worship leader left angry, perhaps the pastor is a bit worried about trusting someone he doesn't know.
I'm not sure what you meant by the pastor's father-in-law being "our appointed deacon"... does each member have a deacon assigned to them? (why, in a small church??)
I don't mean to sound bad, but a lot of this post reads as sour grapes... "waaa! they won't let me serve where I want to serve! waa! because they are full of nepotism!")

As I stated above, you seem to like to read into things. When you ASSume, you make yourself the first three letters of that word. If you didn't mean to sound bad or derogatory you wouldn't have said anything. Just my take on your response. Thank you for your perfection. Maybe I'll come to you for advice someday...NOT!

I assume that you've told the pastor you are willing to serve... or did you tell him that you'd only serve in positions that you want to serve in?

We have served in this church off and on for over six years...I have taught as a substitute for our SS class when our teacher (our deacon) was gone working with Bearing Precious Seed, was out for baseball games (he is in a league for our county), and have also helped setting up, taking down of the fellowship hall, and other things that I can do in what little capacity I have as a disabled person. Having been an interim pastor, a fill in for others who were taking sabbaticals, etc., and having worked with people in addiction recovery, I offered to help get a recovery group started in our church. Our pastor made it clear we would have no recovery group in our church, but yet, after three or four months, in the bulletin, the pastor had an announcement that our newest deacon was going to be heading a recovery group. My wife and I have found this type of thing typical in this church, and as stated, the nepotism and favoritism shown in this church has become unmanageable. No sour grapes at all. We've even volunteered to help in several of the groups in church, to work in the nursery, youth group, and other places, but have been shut down in favor of the deacons or their family members. When others can't serve, it is not good. This is one of the many contentions of the two previous worship leaders, one being forced out for making this type of behavior known to other members through documentation. There are other issues that have led to discontentment among the members. We try to stay out of these things and out of the politics of the church, but yet, it seems like the politics come to our door because we will address problems, first going to the pastor privately, then the deacons, and finally to the membership publically if needed.

 

[AverageJoe]

Good advice! Good post in general.

We were placed on the "enemies" list when we approached our pastor about funds going to the NAMB when that entity was using funds outside of their authority and their constitution. The president of that particular entity, Kevin Ezell, is in a battle against a former missions director, and the case went before the Supreme Court of the United States this past year. Because there were lies found on the part of the NAMB, and Kevin Ezell, the case was thrown back down to the lower court to be heard and tried again. Being in the SBC, there are many issues that have come to light, and it's just not something that is going to resolve itself. My wife and I have brought the issues to the pastor, then to a couple of the deacons, but we've been stopped from bringing it before the church. We've not spoken about it to other members, nor will we, though our pastor has tried to prove we have spoken about it to other members. It's becoming more and more clear that we probably need to be in another, more responsible church, probably OUTSIDE of the imploding SBC.

 

[illinoisguy]

I am not competent to tell Average Joe or anyone else what to do. However, my experience over the years has been, once I find myself on the preacher's "enemies list," it's time to move on. Once on the enemies list, the only way to get off is to make a total, complete groveling submission to the absolute authority of the Mannagod, and even then, you will always be watched and under suspicion, and no amount of submission and obedience to the pastor will ever be good enough. I agree that it's a good idea to move on to a non-SBC church that does not financially support entities of the imploding SBC. But I have to admit that most churches include some very questionable causes in their "missions" budgets. Look at all the IFB churches that were sending money to Hephzibah House, Christian Law Association, etc.

 

[AverageJoe]

I am not competent to tell Average Joe or anyone else what to do. However, my experience over the years has been, once I find myself on the preacher's "enemies list," it's time to move on. Once on the enemies list, the only way to get off is to make a total, complete groveling submission to the absolute authority of the Mannagod, and even then, you will always be watched and under suspicion, and no amount of submission and obedience to the pastor will ever be good enough. I agree that it's a good idea to move on to a non-SBC church that does not financially support entities of the imploding SBC. But I have to admit that most churches include some very questionable causes in their "missions" budgets. Look at all the IFB churches that were sending money to Hephzibah House, Christian Law Association, etc.

Thankfully none of the IFB churches I was/am associated with are in league with these entities. I don't dislike my pastor, but knowing that this is his first pastorate and have been giving him some leeway to try to come around...but I'm finding many of these churches in the SBC want to maintain the status quo and not "rock the boat" concerning things like wasteful spending and hush money paid to employees who have or are leaving these entities in the SBC. It's pretty clear that the SBC isn't going to change but will continue on down the road to apostacy

 

[Walt]

It was the ASSISTANT pastor's FIL, and yes, he is our assigned deacon. We ran, on average before COVID 100-150 a week. In our church deacons are assigned to a group of people. I totally understand not having visitors, and I'm not speaking of VISITING....nowhere do I recall mentioning anything about visiting. You seem to want to read into things what you wish.

Asking for clarification about the word "contact" that you used, not reading things into it. Many people don't consider email or text a "contact"

Good questions....No...I don't believe the church is basically here to serve us, nor do I believe that we are there to serve the church in totality. It should be a balance of both.

I agree with you that it should be a balance... I have to be careful to avoid the mindset that I am "owed" anything.

As I stated above, you seem to like to read into things. If you didn't mean to sound bad or derogatory you wouldn't have said anything. Just my take on your response. Thank you for your perfection. Maybe I'll come to you for advice someday...NOT!

I'm NOT saying I'm perfect; I was seeking clarification. I'm not familiar with assigned deacons for people. Also, I did not accuse you of anything; I merely said that the post sounded LIKE someone who has sour grapes. It may or may not be true for you, as the church/pastor could be completely wrong. And if you weren't looking for feedback, why did you post in a public forum?

We have served in this church off and on for over six years...I have taught as a substitute for our SS class when our teacher (our deacon) was gone working with Bearing Precious Seed, was out for baseball games (he is in a league for our county), and have also helped setting up, taking down of the fellowship hall, and other things that I can do in what little capacity I have as a disabled person. Having been an interim pastor, a fill in for others who were taking sabbaticals, etc., and having worked with people in addiction recovery, I offered to help get a recovery group started in our church. Our pastor made it clear we would have no recovery group in our church, but yet, after three or four months, in the bulletin, the pastor had an announcement that our newest deacon was going to be heading a recovery group. My wife and I have found this type of thing typical in this church, and as stated, the nepotism and favoritism shown in this church has become unmanageable. No sour grapes at all. We've even volunteered to help in several of the groups in church, to work in the nursery, youth group, and other places, but have been shut down in favor of the deacons or their family members. When others can't serve, it is not good. This is one of the many contentions of the two previous worship leaders, one being forced out for making this type of behavior known to other members through documentation. There are other issues that have led to discontentment among the members. We try to stay out of these things and out of the politics of the church, but yet, it seems like the politics come to our door because we will address problems, first going to the pastor privately, then the deacons, and finally to the membership publically if needed.

It certainly sounds like the problem is on their side... I'm be very offended if I offered to help start some ministry, and have my pastor treat me as you said he has treated you. Best wishes in your hunt.