Greek or English?

[HammondCheese]

Your position does not deal with history. There was a Bible before 1611. Nobody during that time period complained about not having a perfect translation in their language, and nobody was striving to make one. Why then are you whining about it 400 years later claiming a single version is perfect when you cant even tell me the text it was translated from is perfect. DEAL with history. I certainly can. You can't. You state there was.not a Bible for 1611 that anyone could trust. Try telling that to Luther, Tyndale, Wycliffe and the other thousands of martyrs who died defending their imperfect translations. The errors in the Geneva are the same type of errors in the KJV. The Geneva/coverdale/Matthew's Bible is just as perfect as the KJV today. Prove me wrong.

Now you're just ranting...  One question at a time if you wish to continue this discussion.  I never said there was not a perfect Bible before 1611 as you repeatedly claim, nor am I obligated to prove the inerrancy of the KJB because I am not the Holy Spirit who confirmed it with me.

Here is my previous post that shows you are either ignoring my stated position or simply denying it:

NOTHING "changed" with the 1611...  That's the whole point.  There has always been a perfect Bible, and not just in English.  I'm not "floundering around whining about not having a perfect" Bible, because I have one.  My Bible is just as God-breathed and inerrant as the very manuscripts on which the words were penned by the writers of the Old and New Testament, and I am under no obligation to prove it to skeptics like you and Ransom who don't believe there is a perfect Bible on earth.  And I didn't say "most accurate" - I said "perfect".

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[Anon1379]

Your position does not deal with history. There was a Bible before 1611. Nobody during that time period complained about not having a perfect translation in their language, and nobody was striving to make one. Why then are you whining about it 400 years later claiming a single version is perfect when you cant even tell me the text it was translated from is perfect. DEAL with history. I certainly can. You can't. You state there was.not a Bible for 1611 that anyone could trust. Try telling that to Luther, Tyndale, Wycliffe and the other thousands of martyrs who died defending their imperfect translations. The errors in the Geneva are the same type of errors in the KJV. The Geneva/coverdale/Matthew's Bible is just as perfect as the KJV today. Prove me wrong.

Now you're just ranting...  One question at a time if you wish to continue this discussion.  I never said there was not a perfect Bible before 1611 as you repeatedly claim, nor am I obligated to prove the inerrancy of the KJB because I am not the Holy Spirit who confirmed it with me.

Here is my previous post that shows you are either ignoring my stated position or simply denying it:

NOTHING "changed" with the 1611...  That's the whole point.  There has always been a perfect Bible, and not just in English.  I'm not "floundering around whining about not having a perfect" Bible, because I have one.  My Bible is just as God-breathed and inerrant as the very manuscripts on which the words were penned by the writers of the Old and New Testament, and I am under no obligation to prove it to skeptics like you and Ransom who don't believe there is a perfect Bible on earth.  And I didn't say "most accurate" - I said "perfect".

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So you can't prove it and you can't tell me where that Bible was before 1611. Sounds like blind Faith to me.

 

[Twisted]

Sounds like blind Faith to me.

I believe the Bible says we are to do exactly that.

 

[HammondCheese]

Sounds like blind Faith to me.

I believe the Bible says we are to do exactly that.

Amen, bruh...  That's the only kind of faith I know of.  Next, he'll ask me to prove the existence of God...  Historically, of course.

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[Anon1379]

Sounds like blind Faith to me.

I believe the Bible says we are to do exactly that.

Amen, bruh...  That's the only kind of faith I know of.  Next, he'll ask me to prove the existence of God...  Historically, of course.

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There is a difference between believing what God has said, and believing in what he has not said. God has said he is real. It is faith to believe that. Faith is believing what God has said. God has not said the kjv is perfect. So it is then blind Faith to assume so. You are not going off of God's word you are believing in something he has not said. now you might say, well I put my faith in the fact that God has said he will preserve it. Of course I believe that to. He preserved it the Greek manuscripts that we have today. You believe that manuscripts and translations are the same, they aren't.  The KJV is not the preserved word of God, it is a translation of the preserved word of God. It is still God's Word but not any more so than the Geneva. What you are saying is that God preserved in perfect Bibles for all of history. Please then show me. Show me any perfect manuscript or perfect translation before 1611. You can't so why is it that KJV is different than the rest. Why choose the KJV over the Geneva. You have yet to answer that.

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[Walt]

Some of our KJVO brothers will say there is no need for Greek as we have the English and therefore English is superior. Pretty much everyone else says Greek is superior. Can our KJVO brothers provide us with examples of the Greek falling short to the English. And can our Greek friends show us some examples where Greek trumps the English?

Ah, coflation. Only Riplinger and Ruckman types make those claims.  God is the Author of the New Testament, and He chose certain Greek words.  While we have a good English translation, it's just pathetic to claim that English is somehow better.

 

[Walt]

One of the leading KJVO ?experts?, Gail Riplinger is as much a Greek scholar as she is an expert on building strong marriages.

like!

 

[Walt]

Some of our KJVO brothers will say there is no need for Greek as we have the English and therefore English is superior. Pretty much everyone else says Greek is superior.

It's not so much that the English or Greek is "superior." Both were, and are, languages that are suitable for the times and people what speak them.

What is important is that the Bible, specifically the New Testament, was originally written in the Greek dialect of a particular time, place, and culture. The quality and accuracy of any English translation needs to be evaluated in that linguistic, literary, and social context. Koine Greek is the source language; English is the target. If there is an error of translation or an ambiguity of meaning that needs to be resolved, we look at the source, not the target.

Well said! (I miss the ability to give feedback).

 

[Walt]

Right, but what I mean is that is there is a disagreement, we go with what the Greek says not the English

You do realize that what you say is the opposite of what the OP asked for, right?

 

[Walt]

Right, but what I mean is that is there is a disagreement, we go with what the Greek says not the English

We always go to the original...in the case of the NT that would be in the Greek.  If the English does not match with the original Greek, then the English is wrong.

The problem is that the two main Greek texts are different. The so-called "critical" text is much, much shorter than the Received text.

 

[HammondCheese]

Some of our KJVO brothers will say there is no need for Greek as we have the English and therefore English is superior. Pretty much everyone else says Greek is superior. Can our KJVO brothers provide us with examples of the Greek falling short to the English. And can our Greek friends show us some examples where Greek trumps the English?

Ah, coflation. Only Riplinger and Ruckman types make those claims.  God is the Author of the New Testament, and He chose certain Greek words.  While we have a good English translation, it's just pathetic to claim that English is somehow better.

None of you "get it"...  It's not about Greek vs. English - or one being superior to the other.  God has preserved His Word in both languages throughout the ages...  It's about the texts themselves. 

The KJB is inerrant in English just as there have been inerrant Greek and Hebrew texts.  The KJB is "superior" to false manuscripts in Greek or Hebrew like the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the inerrantly preserved Greek and Hebrew (TR & MT) are "superior" to false English versions like the NIV, ESV, and NASB.

Stop accusing people like myself of claiming that the KJB is the only inerrant Bible ever - and that no perfect Bible existed before 1611...  That's nonsense.


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[Anon1379]

Some of our KJVO brothers will say there is no need for Greek as we have the English and therefore English is superior. Pretty much everyone else says Greek is superior. Can our KJVO brothers provide us with examples of the Greek falling short to the English. And can our Greek friends show us some examples where Greek trumps the English?

Ah, coflation. Only Riplinger and Ruckman types make those claims.  God is the Author of the New Testament, and He chose certain Greek words.  While we have a good English translation, it's just pathetic to claim that English is somehow better.

None of you "get it"...  It's not about Greek vs. English - or one being superior to the other.  God has preserved His Word in both languages throughout the ages...  It's about the texts themselves. 

The KJB is inerrant in English just as there have been inerrant Greek and Hebrew texts.  The KJB is "superior" to false manuscripts in Greek or Hebrew like the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the inerrantly preserved Greek and Hebrew (TR & MT) are "superior" to false English versions like the NIV, ESV, and NASB.

Stop accusing people like myself of claiming that the KJB is the only inerrant Bible ever - and that no perfect Bible existed before 1611...  That's nonsense.


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Then show me where this inerrant Bible is before 1611. You say it was inerrantly preserved in the tr and MT.  Ok which ones? Do any of the TRs or MTs perfectly match the KJV?  Surely if there was a perfect one, people would have said so, in the same way you say the kjv is perfect.

 

[HammondCheese]

Then show me where this inerrant Bible is before 1611. You say it was inerrantly preserved in the tr and MT.  Ok which ones? Do any of the TRs or MTs perfectly match the KJV?  Surely if there was a perfect one, people would have said so, in the same way you say the kjv is perfect.

You must be from Missouri...

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[illinoisguy]

I'm not from the State of Misery, but someone please show us all where to get the inerrant, perfect Greek text that lines up perfectly with the AV1611 KJV. 

Apparently the Greek Received Text version issued by the Trinitarian Bible Society in 1976 does not meet those specifications.  In Romans 3:4, 3:6, 3:31, 6:2, 6:15, 7:7, 7:13, 9:14, 11:1, 11:11, 1 Corinthians 6:15, Galatians 2:15,  3:21 and 6:14 this text says "Not may it be."  In the KJV for all of these verses it says "God forbid."  That does not match with the Received Text, which does not have the Greek word "theos" or God in any of these passages that are translated "God forbid" by the KJV.  We don't have a perfect match here.  What we need to know: is there a Greek text that matches the KJV perfectly in these verses and in every other verse in the New Testament?  Anybody who says that such a text exists, please tell us where to find it.  No use talking about it if we don't know what and where it is.

 

[HammondCheese]

I'm not from the State of Misery, but someone please show us all where to get the inerrant, perfect Greek text that lines up perfectly with the AV1611 KJV. 

Apparently the Greek Received Text version issued by the Trinitarian Bible Society in 1976 does not meet those specifications.  In Romans 3:4, 3:6, 3:31, 6:2, 6:15, 7:7, 7:13, 9:14, 11:1, 11:11, 1 Corinthians 6:15, Galatians 2:15,  3:21 and 6:14 this text says "Not may it be."  In the KJV for all of these verses it says "God forbid."  That does not match with the Received Text, which does not have the Greek word "theos" or God in any of these passages that are translated "God forbid" by the KJV.  We don't have a perfect match here.  What we need to know: is there a Greek text that matches the KJV perfectly in these verses and in every other verse in the New Testament?  Anybody who says that such a text exists, please tell us where to find it.  No use talking about it if we don't know what and where it is.

I'll tell you what...  You provide me with a time machine and send me back to any year between, let's say, 70 A.D. and 1610 A.D., give me time to learn Greek in the present dialect of that year, and allow me to read every word of the New Testament on my knees as I ask the Lord to confirm with me through His Holy Spirit which manuscripts are His inerrant, divinely preserved, God-breathed words, and I'll come back with an answer for you...

In the meantime, find me a Hebrew manuscript that translates Psalm 12:6-7 as follows:

The words of the Lord are pure words, when translated properly: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
MEN, through their best efforts of accurate translation, shalt keep them, O Lord; MEN, through their best efforts of accurate translation, shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


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[Ransom]

Stop accusing people like myself of claiming that the KJB is the only inerrant Bible ever - and that no perfect Bible existed before 1611...  That's nonsense.

So why did they need a new one if they already had an inerrant one?

 

[Ransom]

I'll tell you what...  You provide me with a time machine and send me back to any year between, let's say, 70 A.D. and 1610 A.D., give me time to learn Greek in the present dialect of that year, and allow me to read every word of the New Testament on my knees as I ask the Lord to confirm with me through His Holy Spirit which manuscripts are His inerrant, divinely preserved, God-breathed words, and I'll come back with an answer for you...

Translation (which is inerrant and divinely inspired for the English-speaking peoples): Low-fat HammondCheese doesn't know the answer to your question, and so he substitutes false piety for actual knowledge.

In the meantime, find me a Hebrew manuscript that translates Psalm 12:6-7 as follows:

The words of the Lord are pure words, when translated properly: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
MEN, through their best efforts of accurate translation, shalt keep them, O Lord; MEN, through their best efforts of accurate translation, shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

First CottageCheese claims he can't tell you what other translations before 1611 are the inerrant ones because he lacks the appropriate linguistic knowledge, and now he is pretending to understand something about translating Psalm 12.

What a load of hot air.

 

[Anon1379]

I'm not from the State of Misery, but someone please show us all where to get the inerrant, perfect Greek text that lines up perfectly with the AV1611 KJV. 

Apparently the Greek Received Text version issued by the Trinitarian Bible Society in 1976 does not meet those specifications.  In Romans 3:4, 3:6, 3:31, 6:2, 6:15, 7:7, 7:13, 9:14, 11:1, 11:11, 1 Corinthians 6:15, Galatians 2:15,  3:21 and 6:14 this text says "Not may it be."  In the KJV for all of these verses it says "God forbid."  That does not match with the Received Text, which does not have the Greek word "theos" or God in any of these passages that are translated "God forbid" by the KJV.  We don't have a perfect match here.  What we need to know: is there a Greek text that matches the KJV perfectly in these verses and in every other verse in the New Testament?  Anybody who says that such a text exists, please tell us where to find it.  No use talking about it if we don't know what and where it is.

I'll tell you what...  You provide me with a time machine and send me back to any year between, let's say, 70 A.D. and 1610 A.D., give me time to learn Greek in the present dialect of that year, and allow me to read every word of the New Testament on my knees as I ask the Lord to confirm with me through His Holy Spirit which manuscripts are His inerrant, divinely preserved, God-breathed words, and I'll come back with an answer for you...

In the meantime, find me a Hebrew manuscript that translates Psalm 12:6-7 as follows:

The words of the Lord are pure words, when translated properly: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
MEN, through their best efforts of accurate translation, shalt keep them, O Lord; MEN, through their best efforts of accurate translation, shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


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Just find me a quote of somebody claiming a perfect Greek text. You won't find it. Perfect manuscripts and perfect translations is a new doctrine. Nobody claimed such nonsense until 1950. God has preserved his word. Not in perfect manuscripts, not in perfect translations, but in every single manuscript we have today.

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[voicecrying]

I'll tell you what...  You provide me with a time machine and send me back to any year between, let's say, 70 A.D. and 1610 A.D., give me time to learn Greek in the present dialect of that year, and allow me to read every word of the New Testament on my knees as I ask the Lord to confirm with me through His Holy Spirit which manuscripts are His inerrant, divinely preserved, God-breathed words, and I'll come back with an answer for you...

If someone else says the Lord confirmed to him/her that the NIV is His inerrant, divinely preserved, God-breathed words, is it true?

 

[HammondCheese]

I'll tell you what...  You provide me with a time machine and send me back to any year between, let's say, 70 A.D. and 1610 A.D., give me time to learn Greek in the present dialect of that year, and allow me to read every word of the New Testament on my knees as I ask the Lord to confirm with me through His Holy Spirit which manuscripts are His inerrant, divinely preserved, God-breathed words, and I'll come back with an answer for you...

If someone else says the Lord confirmed to him/her that the NIV is His inerrant, divinely preserved, God-breathed words, is it true?

I would have far more respect for them than someone who DENIES the fact that there is an inerrant, divinely preserved, God-breathed Bible in existence in 2019... 

...Someone like Anon1379.

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