Greg Boyd and The Myth of a Christian Nation

[The Rogue Tomato]

You SHOULD know that things changed at Calvary. Jesus said if he be lifted up.... He would draw all men to Himelf.

So do you believe in universalism (everyone ends up saved) or an incompetent God?  Because if he draws all men to Himself, yet only a few actually come, then God can't seem to do a good enough job to bring his desires into fruition. 

 

[prophet]

A God who learns is a god designed in the mind of man.

Agreed.

Just give me one Scripture that says God lives outside of time and has seen all of time... including the entirety of the future. Just one. If you can't.... then why you taken the theology of MAN over the Scriptures?

The mixing of Greek Philosophy and the truth of Christianity have produced such nonsense.

Isa 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One
that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;
I dwell in the high and holy place,
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to revive the spirit of the humble,
and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Reiterated here:

2Pe 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Restated here:

Rev 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Emphasized here:

Jn 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

See also : the definitions of Time and Eternity, since God expected us to grasp these concepts when He included them in His Revelation to us.

 

[prophet]

A God who learns is a god designed in the mind of man.

It all depends on what you mean by "learned".

It very clear in the Scriptures that it "behoved" Christ to be like unto his brethren that He might be a faithful High Priest to those he redeemed.

Twist ever how you want to twist it. God. In Christ. Learned/experienced... HIMSELF..... ITs call EMPATHY. God didn't just sympathize with man. In Christ, He could EMPATHIZE with humanity.

Are you denying this at the expense of your theology?

Do I believe that God experienced Humanity? No
I believe He experiences humanity.

See the verb tense here?

Before Abraham WAS, I AM.

See the verb tenses here?

It all goes together. 

FTR, I think one of Calvin's biggest hang ups, is : stumbling over this.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You SHOULD know that things changed at Calvary. Jesus said if he be lifted up.... He would draw all men to Himelf.

So do you believe in universalism (everyone ends up saved) or an incompetent God?  Because if he draws all men to Himself, yet only a few actually come, then God can't seem to do a good enough job to bring his desires into fruition.

Hi mater!!! Haven't seen you around very much lately.

I'd certainly believe in Universalism before I'd believe in Calvinism. For the life of men, I can't see how Calvinism brings any glory to God.

Simple answer. God's desire is to have a people that seeks Him of their own freewill. God isn't looking to create beings that mindlessly serve Him. In fact, its rather obvious that God has never taken that direction in any of His creative actions with sentient beings. You may want to pay attention to the truth of a fallen devil and all those fallen angels that went along with him.

 

[praise_yeshua]

A God who learns is a god designed in the mind of man.

It all depends on what you mean by "learned".

It very clear in the Scriptures that it "behoved" Christ to be like unto his brethren that He might be a faithful High Priest to those he redeemed.

Twist ever how you want to twist it. God. In Christ. Learned/experienced... HIMSELF..... ITs call EMPATHY. God didn't just sympathize with man. In Christ, He could EMPATHIZE with humanity.

Are you denying this at the expense of your theology?

Do I believe that God experienced Humanity? No
I believe He experiences humanity.

See the verb tense here?

Before Abraham WAS, I AM.

See the verb tenses here?

It all goes together. 

FTR, I think one of Calvin's biggest hang ups, is : stumbling over this.

I don't know exactly what you mean by this but it seems your talking about the pre-incarnate bodily form of Christ? While I agree that Christ has Eternally had a "Form" of sometype. I can't say that I believe He has Eternally been "flesh". Regardless of how you view the incarnation.... "something" changed. Its entirely illogical to say that it didn't.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]Simple answer. God's desire is to have a people that seek them of their own freewill. God isn't looking to create beings that mindlessly serve Him. In fact, its rather obvious that God has never taken the direction on any of His creative actions with sentient beings. [/quote]

Strange. I remember God explicitly saying multiple times He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart. I also clearly remember Him saying He was raising up the Chaldeans specifically to destroy Israel, that men murdered Jesus according to a preordained plan, and on and on.

For the Calvinist cheering, I also remember the text explicitly saying Pharaoh hardened his own heart, those men murdered Jesus, etc etc

 

[praise_yeshua]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]Simple answer. God's desire is to have a people that seek them of their own freewill. God isn't looking to create beings that mindlessly serve Him. In fact, its rather obvious that God has never taken the direction on any of His creative actions with sentient beings.

Strange. I remember God explicitly saying multiple times He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart. I also clearly remember Him saying He was raising up the Chaldeans specifically to destroy Israel, that men murdered Jesus according to a preordained plan, and on and on.

For the Calvinist cheering, I also remember the text explicitly saying Pharaoh hardened his own heart, those men murdered Jesus, etc etc
[/quote]

I see that you haven't followed much of what I've written. If you had, you'd know that I've pretty much explained this before. Its not unlike you to just jump into the middle of conversation and just "pick out" something you want to blast. Blast away.... it changes nothing. You ignored a very clear example I gave so that you can "blast away". I suspect you're not really looking to have a sincere conversation.

 

[Recovering IFB]

For the Calvinist cheering, I also remember the text explicitly saying Pharaoh hardened his own heart, those men murdered Jesus, etc etc

Actually, it's called total depravity, man is still responsible for his own actions,

 

[rsc2a]

For the Calvinist cheering, I also remember the text explicitly saying Pharaoh hardened his own heart, those men murdered Jesus, etc etc

Actually, it's called total depravity, man is still responsible for his own actions,

As an Arminian before I knew what it was to a more learned Calvinist to some who decided to believe all of the Bible, not bits and pieces, I'm quite familiar with TULIP.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For the Calvinist cheering, I also remember the text explicitly saying Pharaoh hardened his own heart, those men murdered Jesus, etc etc

Actually, it's called total depravity, man is still responsible for his own actions,

I assume you've found the solution for Total Depravity? You're so lucky....

Just how does a Calvinist KNOW he's part of the elect?

 

[Liberty1]

I may be late to the party but I just picked up this book to read it. I find it interesting that a conservative evangelical can have unorthodox beliefs regarding the nature of God and be o.k., but imply that Fox News is not the gospel, and you lose 20% of your church.

If you have read it, what are your thoughts?
If not, what dynamic do you see between the church and politics?

Contrary to modern revisionists, the founding fathers believed that the United States was a Christian nation, and that can be very easily proven. Here's an example:

Samuel Chase, who had been appointed to the Supreme Court by George Washington, wrote in the Maryland case of Runkel v. Winemiller, 1799: “By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty.”

James Madison appointed to the Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story.

Justice Joseph Story wrote in his Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833, Chapter XLIV, “Amendments to the Constitution,” Section 991: “The real object of the First Amendment was, not to countenance, much less advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects.”

If you want more, let me know.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I may be late to the party but I just picked up this book to read it. I find it interesting that a conservative evangelical can have unorthodox beliefs regarding the nature of God and be o.k., but imply that Fox News is not the gospel, and you lose 20% of your church.

If you have read it, what are your thoughts?
If not, what dynamic do you see between the church and politics?

Contrary to modern revisionists, the founding fathers believed that the United States was a Christian nation, and that can be very easily proven. Here's an example:

Samuel Chase, who had been appointed to the Supreme Court by George Washington, wrote in the Maryland case of Runkel v. Winemiller, 1799: “By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty.”

James Madison appointed to the Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story.

Justice Joseph Story wrote in his Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833, Chapter XLIV, “Amendments to the Constitution,” Section 991: “The real object of the First Amendment was, not to countenance, much less advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects.”

If you want more, let me know.

Sure. Christians were involved in the founding of this country. No one can say any differently.

However, you should know that men like Adams, Jefferson, and Franklin held vastly different view on the Almighty. You should pay attention to the words included in the quotes you posted from the various justices. You will notice the words "all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing".

I don't know if true Christianity would be described in such a manner? Is this how you define Christianity?

 

[Liberty1]

I didn't say "Christians were involved..." - I said the founding fathers considered the nation to be a Christian nation - and they did.

The term "sects" refers to the various denominations of Christianity. Regardless of which denomination we refer to, they viewed the nation as "Christian."

 

[praise_yeshua]

I didn't say "Christians were involved..." - I said the founding fathers considered the nation to be a Christian nation - and they did.

The term "sects" refers to the various denominations of Christianity. Regardless of which denomination we refer to, they viewed the nation as "Christian."

So... you don't see an issue with "sects" and "Christianity" being referenced together?

 

[Liberty1]

I didn't say "Christians were involved..." - I said the founding fathers considered the nation to be a Christian nation - and they did.

The term "sects" refers to the various denominations of Christianity. Regardless of which denomination we refer to, they viewed the nation as "Christian."

So... you don't see an issue with "sects" and "Christianity" being referenced together?

In colonial America there were no Mormons or JW's. The "sects" are references to denominations - like Presbyterian, Baptists, etc. What "sects" do you believe existed in colonial America that were distortions of Christianity that you would object to?

My point is that the founders saw America as a Christian nation - not the multicultural hodgepodge of modern liberalism that objects to crosses on national memorials, etc.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In colonial America there were no Mormons or JW's. The "sects" are references to denominations - like Presbyterian, Baptists, etc. What "sects" do you believe existed in colonial America that were distortions of Christianity that you would object to?

My point is that the founders saw America as a Christian nation - not the multicultural hodgepodge of modern liberalism that objects to crosses on national memorials, etc.

What sect of belief did Thomas Jefferson fall under?  Or maybe John Adams or Benjamin Franklin?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I didn't say "Christians were involved..." - I said the founding fathers considered the nation to be a Christian nation - and they did.

The term "sects" refers to the various denominations of Christianity. Regardless of which denomination we refer to, they viewed the nation as "Christian."

So... you don't see an issue with "sects" and "Christianity" being referenced together?

In colonial America there were no Mormons or JW's. The "sects" are references to denominations - like Presbyterian, Baptists, etc. What "sects" do you believe existed in colonial America that were distortions of Christianity that you would object to?

My point is that the founders saw America as a Christian nation - not the multicultural hodgepodge of modern liberalism that objects to crosses on national memorials, etc.

Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
Declaration of Independence

Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
Congregationalist 13 23.2%
Presbyterian 12 21.4%
Quaker 2 3.6%
Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
Catholic 1 1.8%


Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

 

[rsc2a]

Your list didn't include deist.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Your list didn't include deist.

I didn't compose it; I copied it.

 

[Liberty1]

Getting back to the point  - the founding fathers believed that America was a Christian nation. They didn't just refer to Christianity. They called Christianity the religion of America and took their oaths on the Bible.

This belief extended far into the future. One of many leaps from colonial to later American history that proves the point is the following:

When the Panama Canal was nearing completion, On Dec. 6, 1912, President William Taft addressed Congress:

“Our defense of the Panama Canal, together with our enormous world trade and our missionary outposts on the frontiers of civilization, require us to recognize our position as one of the foremost in the family of nations, and to clothe ourselves with sufficient naval power to give force to our reasonable demands, and to give weight to our influence in those directions of progress that a powerful Christian nation should advocate.”

This term was never objected to by the public until modern times.

American history is filled with examples like this. Only with the rise of political correctness and contemporary political liberalism has the term "Christian" been rejected.