HAC Campus

[tobytyler]

Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services.

Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?

I've never heard of this at FBCH, but would like to see the documents that explain the requirements to get such a retirement.  If that were true, then there would be a fund that the church contributes to for retirees.  Do they have such a fund?  It would be a line item in the financials.

FBCH does not offer any type retirement period. This program has been discontinued since about 2011. Only those who are now getting 100% of the salary they retired at are on the plan. As they pass so does the program. You had to be signed up on it before 2011 to collect when you reached your 70th birthday. There is no funding for this program, just the operating budget.

How many retired FBC staff members have taken advantage of this retirement incentive in addition to the Colsten's? 

 

[Twisted]

Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services.

Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?

I've never heard of this at FBCH, but would like to see the documents that explain the requirements to get such a retirement.  If that were true, then there would be a fund that the church contributes to for retirees.  Do they have such a fund?  It would be a line item in the financials.

FBCH does not offer any type retirement period. This program has been discontinued since about 2011. Only those who are now getting 100% of the salary they retired at are on the plan. As they pass so does the program. You had to be signed up on it before 2011 to collect when you reached your 70th birthday. There is no funding for this program, just the operating budget.

How many retired FBC staff members have taken advantage of this retirement incentive in addition to the Colsten's?

No doubt Mrs. H gets Jacks check.

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

So they have a total debt of 13.2 million on all the properties?
That does not sound too bad considering all the debt Schapp racked up.

Correct, although it does not include unfunded liabilities, such as lifetime retirement at full salary for retired employees.

As long as the staff all agree to work as long as the Colstens did, this seems like a very reasonable benefit.

It was a reasonable benefit instituted by Bro. Schaap when we had millionaires giving us free money.
It is no longer reasonable or workable when it has to come out of the budget.
No organization can afford those kind of benefits if they don't have taxing authority and even taxing authorities can not provide the type of benefits we are now obligated to provide these former employees for as long as they live.

That seems like a very silly statement.
Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services.
Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?

Sword said, "Many industries provide lifetime pensions at the 65 to 85% of base salary rate plus benefits. These industries include, banking, finance & insurance, mining, manufacturing, utilities, management, health providers, shipping & warehousing, energy, & technical & scientific services."
Perhaps if we had built up to it with a plan to fund it, it would have made sense. We had no plan and we were not setting aside any funds to pay these benefits. A church is not just any industry and most spend every dime they take in as we did.
When we made the retirement plan we did not take into account that we might not continue to receive millions of dollars of free money every year into perpetuity, shame on us. After all we were accustomed to receiving free money for many decades.
At this point the funding of current benefits takes a substantial part of our budget. This is only for those who have previously retired. We are not currently offering any retirement plan for anyone in the future.
Sword said, "Do you think the church no longer owes the retirement benefits they promised it's long time employees just because they no longer have a healthy cash flow. Do you not get any retirement benefits from your former employer?"
I think I made myself clear by the statement, "..can not provide the type of benefits we are now obligated to provide these former employees for as long as they live."
I have been a business owner for about 50 years, so no my employer does not provide any retirement benefits. By the way I still work about 50 hours a week currently in my consulting business.

This post I am in complete agreement with.

I took your other post to mean you should stop paying the pensions of those who had already retired and that no companies can offer pensions these days. MY BAD

Surely you have been funding a 401K, IRA  or SEP plan for yourself. I can not imagine someone trying to retire on SS alone. Do you think churches should plan & budget for their staffs retirement or "Let God provide". I think all churches with full time staff should budget to "Match" funds for a 401k for their staff. I always hear we can't afford it but our SBC friends seem to make it work. It is a disgrace to have some full time staff living in poverty while other live like CEO's.

It's amazing the churches expect God to provide for the employee. Why can't they depend on God providing for them?

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

By the way I still work about 50 hours a week currently in my consulting business.

This is an obvious hindrance to you posting on the FFF.  We'd ask that you cut your hours so your posting time can increase.

It's about time somebody stood up and said it!

 

[Sherryh]

With the cuts that FBC did to people ....are you serious that Mrs H is still getting JH check. I don't think so....

Does anyone know? .

 

[BALAAM]

With the cuts that FBC did to people ....are you serious that Mrs H is still getting JH check. I don't think so....

Does anyone know? .

I thought they voted years ago, before jh died, to pay her his full salary for life after he died.

 

[tobytyler]

On a personal view,  I think that all employees who put in 40-50 years at a place of employment should receive some sort of pension, FBC employees included.

For decades, these people lived on meager salaries and would work long hours (Sundays included) and shouldn't be shoved to the wayside once they're too old to perform their duties any longer.

Jennie Nishchick, Dorothy Woods, Rema Vezey, Colstens,

 

[bgwilkinson]

By the way I still work about 50 hours a week currently in my consulting business.

This is an obvious hindrance to you posting on the FFF.  We'd ask that you cut your hours so your posting time can increase.

It's about time somebody stood up and said it!

Yes, due to extensive travel without wifi and long work hours where I can't check my phone the best I can usually do is an occasional drive-by posting. 

 

[bgwilkinson]

Is FBCH trying to sell the HAC campus or just a part of it?  Does anyone know? I think they have some kind of vote tonight.

No.

Tonight's vote is on accepting the terms of a five year note for 13.2 million.

This is the final part of our refinancing.

This was sent Thursday morning to all members who are signed up to get prayer requests by email.

Quote
Thank you to so many of you who have prayed.  The result of the vote in the service last night on the church refinance was 92 percent in favor of the deacons? recommendation.  Please continue to pray for the church as we move forward in this way.

Voting was by paper ballot.

 

[Norefund]

Thanks for this post.  I have always wondered what happens to full time church workers when they retire.  The meager salary part probably makes it difficult to fund any decent 401k or IRA account. 

I understand they did not go into the ministry for the money but, I always try to put my self in their shoes.

1. Usually less than average salary for someone with a 4 (or 6) year degree.
2. Normally sub par (high deductible) healthcare if any at all.
3. Free or subsidized housing that ends when you die or retire.
4. A schedule or deacons that may limit your ability to work another job
5. No overtime pay or bonuses for extra hrs. worked
6. Odd hrs with hospital visits, weddings, deaths, funerals, counseling.
7. No pension, savings or retirement plan and if he was extra naive he did not pay into S.S.

I can just imagine the pastor dying after 35 years in the ministry and the church saying "by the way we will continue to pay your husbands salary for 30 days, your healthcare ends on the 1st, and you have until the end of the month to be out of the parsonage because we will be calling a new pastor asap.

 

[Sherryh]

CW does not get a pension from FBC he put in 40 + years and yes worked for pennies. He also had other jobs he did.... I know some of you don't like him and that's ok. We all have different experiences with people. This is a sore spot with me ...I can't tell people sure go full time in the ministry and live on pennies....You have to work smart and prepare for the future ....

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Interesting read in this thread. But here are a couple questions:

1. Where does the Bible teach retired pastors should be given a retirement plan?
2. The churches that do have such a plan, are they taking care of the widows within their congregation?

 

[Twisted]

Interesting read in this thread. But here are a couple questions:

1. Where does the Bible teach retired pastors should be given a retirement plan?
2. The churches that do have such a plan, are they taking care of the widows within their congregation?

Where does the Bible teach that pastors are to retire?

 

[prophet]

With the cuts that FBC did to people ....are you serious that Mrs H is still getting JH check. I don't think so....

Does anyone know? .

I thought they voted years ago, before jh died, to pay her his full salary for life after he died.

You mean "we".

Didn't you vote that night?

I did.

earnestly contend

 

[prophet]

Interesting read in this thread. But here are a couple questions:

1. Where does the Bible teach retired pastors should be given a retirement plan?
2. The churches that do have such a plan, are they taking care of the widows within their congregation?

Where does the Bible teach that pastors are to retire?

Where does the Bible teach that the pastors should be paid in exclusion of the other elders?

earnestly contend

 

[Twisted]

Interesting read in this thread. But here are a couple questions:

1. Where does the Bible teach retired pastors should be given a retirement plan?
2. The churches that do have such a plan, are they taking care of the widows within their congregation?

Where does the Bible teach that pastors are to retire?

Where does the Bible teach that the pastors should be paid in exclusion of the other elders?

Where does the Bible teach.....wait....this *IS* a HAC forum, right?

 

[prophet]

Interesting read in this thread. But here are a couple questions:

1. Where does the Bible teach retired pastors should be given a retirement plan?
2. The churches that do have such a plan, are they taking care of the widows within their congregation?

Where does the Bible teach that pastors are to retire?

Where does the Bible teach that the pastors should be paid in exclusion of the other elders?

Where does the Bible teach.....wait....this *IS* a HAC forum, right?

Touch?

earnestly contend

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

With the cuts that FBC did to people ....are you serious that Mrs H is still getting JH check. I don't think so....

Does anyone know? .

I thought they voted years ago, before jh died, to pay her his full salary for life after he died.

You mean "we".

Didn't you vote that night?

I did.

earnestly contend

Just saying......
Back in the Day (AKA the 80's) FBCH was regularly sending a monetary gift to the former pastor(s) or former pastor's widows that had been there back in the 40's and 50's.

 

[prophet]

With the cuts that FBC did to people ....are you serious that Mrs H is still getting JH check. I don't think so....

Does anyone know? .

I thought they voted years ago, before jh died, to pay her his full salary for life after he died.

You mean "we".

Didn't you vote that night?

I did.

earnestly contend

Just saying......
Back in the Day (AKA the 80's) FBCH was regularly sending a monetary gift to the former pastor(s) or former pastor's widows that had been there back in the 40's and 50's.

Yes.
We took care of Pastor Miller's Widow, even though they disagreed with the direction we took with JH.


earnestly contend

 

[BALAAM]

With the cuts that FBC did to people ....are you serious that Mrs H is still getting JH check. I don't think so....

Does anyone know? .

I thought they voted years ago, before jh died, to pay her his full salary for life after he died.

You mean "we".

Didn't you vote that night?

I did.

earnestly contend

If I remember correctly, there wasn't much voting. The deacons would put forth a recommendation to the church and then say, All in favor say aye. All opposed... Motion is carried. So, did I vote? I don't really know.