Hell is not a torture chamber: JP Moreland

[BandGuy]

In response to the objection to Templeton's Challenge in Lee Strobel's book, "The case for Faith", JP Moreland makes the following arugment:

Moreland shook his head. "God doesn't torture people in Hell,...Templeton also makes it sound like God is a spoiled child who says to people, 'Look, if you're not willing to obey my arbitrary rules, then I'm going to sentence you for it...' Well, of course, if God is just a child with arbitrary rules, then it would be capricious for Him to sentence people.  But that's not at all what is going on here.

God is the most generous, loving,...being in the cosmos.... And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made,...then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along in our lives, which is separation from Him.
And that is Hell....

Lee Strobel:  The Case For Faith, pp. 448-449, Nook Edition  (Note:  This is the Special Edition with a combined Case For Christ and Case For Faith).

Questions to think about and discuss in his answer:

1.  Is Hell not a place of torture?  Is JP Moreland teetering on the edge of Rob Bell Theology here?
2.  Does God not have a choice in what He chooses to do with His creation?
3.  Is Hell nothing more than mere separation from God forever?

 

[prophet]

i have never read anything from jp moreland... but it sounds like he has completely ignored the gospel of luke.....  in luke 16;24 Jesus describes the rich man as being tormented in a flame and begging for a single drop of water to cool his tongue..... ... while that doesn;t support the kind of hell portrayed in art work where people are chained in iron and being poked with pitch forks by satans minions......  it is nonetheless torturous.....

personally i believe the worse part of hell... the final lake of fire.. will be the separation from God..... but fire will definitely be a very terrible part of it too......  why fire has to be there is something God will have to tell us..... but both scripture tell us... and Jesus definitely confirmed... that fire is there..... ....

but in the account Jesus gave He also said the rich man was still able to see abraham from afar off.....his biggest concern seemed that he was being tormented in flame and unable to quench his thirst ......so it seems that even though he was in the place currently known as hell he was not yet feeling the eternal separation from God....... which is a separation i believe the condemned will experience after the final judgement in the lake of fire hell that was created for satan and the fallen angels who followed him ..  ..... why must the condemned of mankind go there too?...... i have heard it taught that it;s because there will be no other place for them..... and after the final judgement... as the condemned who have already been judged.... they will not be able to remain in the presence of God.....

Rev. 19:10 The lost will be tormented in the presence of God.

Anishinabe

 

[Ransom]

1.  Is Hell not a place of torture?  Is JP Moreland teetering on the edge of Rob Bell Theology here?

What Moreland said is, "God does not torture people in Hell." I have no doubt that people in hell feel tortured, however, I don't think that is exactly the same thing as saying that God is sadistically inflicting pain upon them.

Without more context or a wider view of Moreland's beliefs, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[BandGuy]

1.  Is Hell not a place of torture?  Is JP Moreland teetering on the edge of Rob Bell Theology here?

What Moreland said is, "God does not torture people in Hell." I have no doubt that people in hell feel tortured, however, I don't think that is exactly the same thing as saying that God is sadistically inflicting pain upon them.

Without more context or a wider view of Moreland's beliefs, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Do you believe, though, that Hell is a place of torture?  If so, who is torturing them?

 

[prophet]

i have never read anything from jp moreland... but it sounds like he has completely ignored the gospel of luke.....  in luke 16;24 Jesus describes the rich man as being tormented in a flame and begging for a single drop of water to cool his tongue..... ... while that doesn;t support the kind of hell portrayed in art work where people are chained in iron and being poked with pitch forks by satans minions......  it is nonetheless torturous.....

personally i believe the worse part of hell... the final lake of fire.. will be the separation from God..... but fire will definitely be a very terrible part of it too......  why fire has to be there is something God will have to tell us..... but both scripture tell us... and Jesus definitely confirmed... that fire is there..... ....

but in the account Jesus gave He also said the rich man was still able to see abraham from afar off.....his biggest concern seemed that he was being tormented in flame and unable to quench his thirst ......so it seems that even though he was in the place currently known as hell he was not yet feeling the eternal separation from God....... which is a separation i believe the condemned will experience after the final judgement in the lake of fire hell that was created for satan and the fallen angels who followed him ..  ..... why must the condemned of mankind go there too?...... i have heard it taught that it;s because there will be no other place for them..... and after the final judgement... as the condemned who have already been judged.... they will not be able to remain in the presence of God.....

Rev. 19:10 The lost will be tormented in the presence of God.

Anishinabe

mmmm... revelation 19;10 teaches that is a sin to worship anything or anyone other than God.... (such as the angel the writer was speaking to... etc.).... i don;t see it teaching that the condemned in the lake of fire after the final judgment will still be in the presence of God....  ???

rev 19:10  .... and i fell at his feet to worship him. and he said unto me, see thou do it not: i am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Sorry, it should read Rev. 14:10.

Anishinabe

 

[prophet]

I have had a bad habit, lately , of  posting things from memory.  I have a photographic memory, it leaves me in a dark room and doesn't develop.
When someone corrects me, I look into it, cuz I may be wrong.
So thank you to those who pay attention, and let me know when I'm off.


Anishinabe

 

[Ransom]

Do you believe, though, that Hell is a place of torture?  If so, who is torturing them?

If you accept that hell involves eternal separation from God, then there's no one to torture them. Torture implies an active torturer, and there is none. They are being tormented.

 

[prophet]

I have had a bad habit, lately , of  posting things from memory.  I have a photographic memory, it leaves me in a dark room and doesn't develop.
When someone corrects me, I look into it, cuz I may be wrong.
So thank you to those who pay attention, and let me know when I'm off.


Anishinabe

no problem... thanks for correcting the verse...... .. rev 14;10 does say the condemned will be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb....(Jesus as the sacrifice for sins)... .. but i have never seen that to indicate they would also be in the presence of God the Father....or that they would not feel eternal separation from Him.... .. but i will definitely study that further.....  thank you....

Nor does the Bible ever say that Hell = separation from God.  The Lamb and the Father are one.

Anishinabe

 

[BandGuy]

Do you believe, though, that Hell is a place of torture?  If so, who is torturing them?

If you accept that hell involves eternal separation from God, then there's no one to torture them. Torture implies an active torturer, and there is none. They are being tormented.

Good point.  Thanks.

 

[prophet]

Okay, I get that.  And the unregenerated will never be known by Him.  He won't dwell in them.  They won't dwell in Him.
But  'if I make my bed in Hell, behold thou art there' has to be included.

Anishinabe

 

[BandGuy]

Okay, I get that.  And the unregenerated will never be known by Him.  He won't dwell in them.  They won't dwell in Him.
But  'if I make my bed in Hell, behold thou art there' has to be included.

Anishinabe

but was the writer in psalm 139 talking about making his bed in a hell of another sense?..... or being condemned to the hell in a literal sense?.... the people Jesus spoke of were being condemned as false ...... the writer of psalm 139 was speaking of himself as a true child of God.....  ..is there another place in the Bible that indicates people in hell will still be in the presence of God?...........

I think Psalm 139 is referring to the grave and not to Hell. 

 

[prophet]

Okay, I get that.  And the unregenerated will never be known by Him.  He won't dwell in them.  They won't dwell in Him.
But  'if I make my bed in Hell, behold thou art there' has to be included.

Anishinabe

but was the writer in psalm 139 talking about making his bed in a hell of another sense?..... or being condemned to the hell in a literal sense?.... the people Jesus spoke of were being condemned as false ...... the writer of psalm 139 was speaking of himself as a true child of God.....  ..is there another place in the Bible that indicates people in hell will still be in the presence of God?...........

I think Psalm 139 is referring to the grave and not to Hell.

noted.

Anishinabe

 

[Reformed Guy]

Do you believe, though, that Hell is a place of torture?  If so, who is torturing them?

If you accept that hell involves eternal separation from God, then there's no one to torture them. Torture implies an active torturer, and there is none. They are being tormented.

True (if true), but...

...how do we reconcile this with the idea of God's Omnipresence?  (Omnipresence=God's Presence is Everywhere=God's Presence is in Hell)

 

[Ransom]

If you accept that hell involves eternal separation from God, then there's no one to torture them. Torture implies an active torturer, and there is none. They are being tormented.

Granted, but even so, it doesn't imply that God is there as a torturer.

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thess. 1:9).

So there is a sense in which hell is separated from God, whether it is a "bubble" of the created order where God does not exist (unlikely, given the usual definition of omnipresence); or while he is there, it is not to care for those in hell or to comfort or bless them; or some other sense.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Just an interesting thought/opinion from a theologue relating to the concept of omnipresence of God, separation, and torture in hell.

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.” To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

http://www.ligonier.org/blog/hell/

 

[Reformed Guy]

If you accept that hell involves eternal separation from God, then there's no one to torture them. Torture implies an active torturer, and there is none. They are being tormented.

Granted, but even so, it doesn't imply that God is there as a torturer.

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thess. 1:9).

So there is a sense in which hell is separated from God, whether it is a "bubble" of the created order where God does not exist (unlikely, given the usual definition of omnipresence); or while he is there, it is not to care for those in hell or to comfort or bless them; or some other sense.

Jonathan Edwards taught (don't recall the sermon name) that God's presence would be in hell but His grace would be absent.  According to Edwards, part of what will make hell so helllish is that they will forever see the face of  the One that they rejected.  In hell they would still retain the image of God (think of it like the image we see when we look in a mirror)- which would require His presence- and because they retain his image is the reason that the worm never dies.

 

[rsc2a]

My thoughts from a previous thread:

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Well, you're either absolutely and categorically wrong, or at least inadquately explaining what you mean by claiming that God is not separated from sinners.

Simple. I am not an annihilationist. If God is not present with you, then you cease to exist (or, more accurately, never really existed at all). Since you do exist, God is present with you.

As someone stated once (and I believe it might have actually been Lewis), my belief is that the same revealed glory of God that will cause those who are called of Him to experience unquenching joy will be the glory that causes those not called to experience unquenching sorrow. And all will worship...one cannot see God revealed and do anything but worship.[/quote]

 

[Reformed Guy]

My thoughts from a previous thread:

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Well, you're either absolutely and categorically wrong, or at least inadquately explaining what you mean by claiming that God is not separated from sinners.

Simple. I am not an annihilationist. If God is not present with you, then you cease to exist (or, more accurately, never really existed at all). Since you do exist, God is present with you.

As someone stated once (and I believe it might have actually been Lewis), my belief is that the same revealed glory of God that will cause those who are called of Him to experience unquenching joy will be the glory that causes those not called to experience unquenching sorrow. And all will worship...one cannot see God revealed and do anything but worship.

[/quote]

I guess it comes down to what you mean by "worship."  There's a difficulty in agreeing with you, though. if worship is defined as I would normally think of it.  Romans 1 is clear that all men "know" God, but in unrighteousness supress the truth about Him, and chooses to glorify (or worship) the creature instead.  And I know of no reason to think that it's different in Hell.  True, every knee will bow, but it will be a forced submission.  I can't see why they won't go on hating God for eternity.

 

[ALAYMAN]

My thoughts from a previous thread:

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Well, you're either absolutely and categorically wrong, or at least inadquately explaining what you mean by claiming that God is not separated from sinners.

Simple. I am not an annihilationist. If God is not present with you, then you cease to exist (or, more accurately, never really existed at all). Since you do exist, God is present with you.

As someone stated once (and I believe it might have actually been Lewis), my belief is that the same revealed glory of God that will cause those who are called of Him to experience unquenching joy will be the glory that causes those not called to experience unquenching sorrow. And all will worship...one cannot see God revealed and do anything but worship.

I guess it comes down to what you mean by "worship."  There's a difficulty in agreeing with you, though. if worship is defined as I would normally think of it.  Romans 1 is clear that all men "know" God, but in unrighteousness supress the truth about Him, and chooses to glorify (or worship) the creature instead.  And I know of no reason to think that it's different in Hell.  True, every knee will bow, but it will be a forced submission.  I can't see why they won't go on hating God for eternity.
[/quote]

Yep, forced submission is not worship in the normal Biblical usage of the term.  I could agree to everything he said, up til that part about them worshipping in hell, and he knows that's the thing that every person disagreed with him about. 

 

[rsc2a]

My thoughts from a previous thread:

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Well, you're either absolutely and categorically wrong, or at least inadquately explaining what you mean by claiming that God is not separated from sinners.

Simple. I am not an annihilationist. If God is not present with you, then you cease to exist (or, more accurately, never really existed at all). Since you do exist, God is present with you.

As someone stated once (and I believe it might have actually been Lewis), my belief is that the same revealed glory of God that will cause those who are called of Him to experience unquenching joy will be the glory that causes those not called to experience unquenching sorrow. And all will worship...one cannot see God revealed and do anything but worship.

I guess it comes down to what you mean by "worship."  There's a difficulty in agreeing with you, though. if worship is defined as I would normally think of it.  Romans 1 is clear that all men "know" God, but in unrighteousness supress the truth about Him, and chooses to glorify (or worship) the creature instead.  And I know of no reason to think that it's different in Hell.  True, every knee will bow, but it will be a forced submission.  I can't see why they won't go on hating God for eternity.[/quote]


worship
wor·ship
[wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor·shiped, wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) wor·shipped, wor·ship·ping.
noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

See also: praise.