Hell is not a torture chamber: JP Moreland

[ALAYMAN]

lol, the end result of Calvinism gone badly wrong, worship without faith.

 

[prophet]

If you accept that hell involves eternal separation from God, then there's no one to torture them. Torture implies an active torturer, and there is none. They are being tormented.

Granted, but even so, it doesn't imply that God is there as a torturer.

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thess. 1:9).

So there is a sense in which hell is separated from God, whether it is a "bubble" of the created order where God does not exist (unlikely, given the usual definition of omnipresence); or while he is there, it is not to care for those in hell or to comfort or bless them; or some other sense.

AV 2Thes1:7-10(forcontext)"And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not thne gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints,..."

Anishinaabe

 

[Saved by Grace]

JP Moreland should read the Scriptures then come back and speak on the matter

 

[S.T.Ranger]

I have had a bad habit, lately , of  posting things from memory.  I have a photographic memory, it leaves me in a dark room and doesn't develop.
When someone corrects me, I look into it, cuz I may be wrong.
So thank you to those who pay attention, and let me know when I'm off.


Anishinabe

no problem... thanks for correcting the verse...... .. rev 14;10 does say the condemned will be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb....(Jesus as the sacrifice for sins)... .. but i have never seen that to indicate they would also be in the presence of God the Father....or that they would not feel eternal separation from Him.... .. but i will definitely study that further.....  thank you....

Nor does the Bible ever say that Hell = separation from God.  The Lamb and the Father are one.

Anishinabe

Scripture describes death, which is a "separation," and is in fact the primary problem man faces, becaue he is conceived separated from God, a contrasted to the relationship man (Adam) was created into. Thus those who do not believe on Christ, who have not "eaten of His flesh (the Living, True Bread from Heaven), are Biblically designated as dead. The Second death (separation) is on an eternal level, whereas the death we are born into is on a physical level.

When men are cast into Hell they are eternally separated from God, and I do see that torture is a component of Hell, a singular point which shall be torturous being that they will understand that God did not cast them into Hell, but that they made that decision in rejecting the provision given them to avoid the torment they are in. For example, under the Law, when Christ taught about the disposition of the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham does not tell the rich man his brothers can appeal to Christ, but to the Law and the Prophets, which shows that the will of God concerning man has been revealed to (at least these) men, and that they (the Law and the Prophets) were sufficient to keep them from torment.

That is not to say the Law and the Prophets were sufficient for one to obtain Eternal Redemption, but, that they were sufficient for God, through their obedience, to extend grace to those who obeyed His Will.

God bless.

 

[Walt]

1.  Is Hell not a place of torture?  Is JP Moreland teetering on the edge of Rob Bell Theology here?

What Moreland said is, "God does not torture people in Hell." I have no doubt that people in hell feel tortured, however, I don't think that is exactly the same thing as saying that God is sadistically inflicting pain upon them.

Without more context or a wider view of Moreland's beliefs, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Precisely.

 

[Walt]

1.  Is Hell not a place of torture?  Is JP Moreland teetering on the edge of Rob Bell Theology here?

What Moreland said is, "God does not torture people in Hell." I have no doubt that people in hell feel tortured, however, I don't think that is exactly the same thing as saying that God is sadistically inflicting pain upon them.

Without more context or a wider view of Moreland's beliefs, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Do you believe, though, that Hell is a place of torture?  If so, who is torturing them?

Does someone have to be?  Could it simply be that the circumstances of nothing at all from God is like torture?

God created the sun, and it shines and good and evil today... but in a future estate, God is the light in heaven, and hell is eternal blackness.  Not sure that no light is equivalent to torture, but hopefully, it gives an understanding.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

If you accept that hell involves eternal separation from God, then there's no one to torture them. Torture implies an active torturer, and there is none. They are being tormented.

Granted, but even so, it doesn't imply that God is there as a torturer.

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thess. 1:9).

So there is a sense in which hell is separated from God, whether it is a "bubble" of the created order where God does not exist (unlikely, given the usual definition of omnipresence); or while he is there, it is not to care for those in hell or to comfort or bless them; or some other sense.

AV 2Thes1:7-10(forcontext)"And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not thne gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints,..."

Anishinaabe

The context seems to indicate a temporal perspective concerning those who do not know God and who do not obey the Gospel. That is a reference to those who are troubling those Paul writes to. This is further indicated by his progression to discuss the Rapture, the Tribulation,  and the coming of the Antichrist.

Just as in Matthew 25, in the destruction of those who are unbelievers who survive the Tribulation, and are destroyed physically, they go into eternal judgment, and I don't think we can impose a finality that might pass over the Great White Throne. Or in other words, it is not necessary to impose a sequential fulfillment, but to recognize the truths remain the same despite when judgment is finally imposed.

Everlasting punishment begins the moment one dies outside of Christ (or outside of justification by faith in the Old Testament). The Rich Man in Luke 16 was in torment, and we can say dogmatically that we cannot place this consignment to Hades prior to the Great White Throne, and leave it in the very Age it is found in, the Age of Law, as shown by Abraham's appeal to the Law and the Prophets.


God bless.