He's doing it again - Jack

[Least of These]

Speaking only for myself here, my complaint is with the "justice" system overall and not based on any misunderstanding or minimization of what Schaap did.  I agree that he used his authority to abuse a teenager in his care, and I have never described it as a "relationship" (has anyone, actually?)  Even so, I believe 12 years in federal prison is excessive. 

And to the person who asked earlier, no, I probably wouldn't feel the same way if it were my daughter, but that's the whole point.  The legal system shouldn't be based on emotions, and sentences shouldn't be increased (or decreased) based on a judge's personal feelings toward a defendant.  IMO.

 

[prophet]

Speaking only for myself here, my complaint is with the "justice" system overall and not based on any misunderstanding or minimization of what Schaap did.  I agree that he used his authority to abuse a teenager in his care, and I have never described it as a "relationship" (has anyone, actually?)  Even so, I believe 12 years in federal prison is excessive. 

And to the person who asked earlier, no, I probably wouldn't feel the same way if it were my daughter, but that's the whole point.  The legal system shouldn't be based on emotions, and sentences shouldn't be increased (or decreased) based on a judge's personal feelings toward a defendant.  IMO.

J.S. mocked God, and God is not mocked.  He got what God sent him to recieve...public humiliation and shame...to remind us all that we were part of something evil.

 

[Least of These]

J.S. mocked God, and God is not mocked.  He got what God sent him to recieve...public humiliation and shame...to remind us all that we were part of something evil.

I understand; I just don't agree. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

That there is the biggest thing for me.  JS has been married for 30 plus years (something close to that I'm sure) he knew how to get in that girls head.  And for some reason, some people just do not get that very important peace of the puzzle, boggles my mind. 

They want to refer to it as "a relationship", whatever.

Absolutely.
It was ABUSE not a relationship. Anyone read Schaap's twisted letters to his victim? He tried to make his abuse sound spiritual!!

And this was not the only lady he tried this with.

It was a horrible abuse of authority. And the set up at FBCH facilitated it. No one questioned the pastor when he would make plans to be alone with the victim - in fact, the delivered the poor girl to him! The victim was told by the admin to completely trust him with her life.

H-E-L-L-O!

I am stunned her family hasn't sued FBCH over their part in her abuse.

I agree completely.  He manipulated a compromised, underage teen whom he was supposed to be pastoring and counseling.

You also must take into effect that Indiana has some of the most lenient laws in the land for sex offenders.  Indiana must take into consideration the other state's involvement.  They wanted to try him since it happened in their state and he was a figurehead in their state.  Good for Indiana.  Nail his sorry hide to the barn door.  He continues to blameshift, refusing to recognize the error of his way.  Unrepentant, I count him as an atheist.

 

[prophet]

That there is the biggest thing for me.  JS has been married for 30 plus years (something close to that I'm sure) he knew how to get in that girls head.  And for some reason, some people just do not get that very important peace of the puzzle, boggles my mind. 

They want to refer to it as "a relationship", whatever.

Absolutely.
It was ABUSE not a relationship. Anyone read Schaap's twisted letters to his victim? He tried to make his abuse sound spiritual!!

And this was not the only lady he tried this with.

It was a horrible abuse of authority. And the set up at FBCH facilitated it. No one questioned the pastor when he would make plans to be alone with the victim - in fact, the delivered the poor girl to him! The victim was told by the admin to completely trust him with her life.

H-E-L-L-O!

I am stunned her family hasn't sued FBCH over their part in her abuse.

I agree completely.  He manipulated a compromised, underage teen whom he was supposed to be pastoring and counseling.

You also must take into effect that Indiana has some of the most lenient laws in the land for sex offenders.  Indiana must take into consideration the other state's involvement.  They wanted to try him since it happened in their state and he was a figurehead in their state.  Good for Indiana.  Nail his sorry hide to the barn door.  He continues to blameshift, refusing to recognize the error of his way.  Unrepentant, I count him as an atheist.

Yes, he is a heathen to me as well.

 

[Timotheus]

Speaking only for myself here, my complaint is with the "justice" system overall and not based on any misunderstanding or minimization of what Schaap did.  I agree that he used his authority to abuse a teenager in his care, and I have never described it as a "relationship" (has anyone, actually?)  Even so, I believe 12 years in federal prison is excessive. 

And to the person who asked earlier, no, I probably wouldn't feel the same way if it were my daughter, but that's the whole point.  The legal system shouldn't be based on emotions, and sentences shouldn't be increased (or decreased) based on a judge's personal feelings toward a defendant.  IMO.

It seems as if Jack picked the wrong time in recent history to mess with a 16/17 year old.  Dave H did more than Jack and has never spent 1 day in jail for it. 

On the topic of the judge's personal feelings toward the defendant, I don't believe he had much choice about the 12 years with the federal sentencing guide lines.    Reading the sentencing memorandum (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-jack-schaap-sentencing-memorandum-20130314-htmlstory.html) gives only a small part of the craziness that was Jack Schaap at the end.  I believe the judge and the prosecutor knew more than is publicly known to us even at this point.

Jack Schaap is ultimately responsible for his own demise, but there are a lot of people who were warned before it got criminal.  Cindy, Eddie L, and Terry D to name a few should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Timotheus]

That there is the biggest thing for me.  JS has been married for 30 plus years (something close to that I'm sure) he knew how to get in that girls head.  And for some reason, some people just do not get that very important peace of the puzzle, boggles my mind. 

They want to refer to it as "a relationship", whatever.

Absolutely.
It was ABUSE not a relationship. Anyone read Schaap's twisted letters to his victim? He tried to make his abuse sound spiritual!!

And this was not the only lady he tried this with.

It was a horrible abuse of authority. And the set up at FBCH facilitated it. No one questioned the pastor when he would make plans to be alone with the victim - in fact, the delivered the poor girl to him! The victim was told by the admin to completely trust him with her life.

H-E-L-L-O!

I am stunned her family hasn't sued FBCH over their part in her abuse.

I agree completely.  He manipulated a compromised, underage teen whom he was supposed to be pastoring and counseling.

You also must take into effect that Indiana has some of the most lenient laws in the land for sex offenders.  Indiana must take into consideration the other state's involvement.  They wanted to try him since it happened in their state and he was a figurehead in their state.  Good for Indiana.  Nail his sorry hide to the barn door.  He continues to blameshift, refusing to recognize the error of his way.  Unrepentant, I count him as an atheist.

Yes, he is a heathen to me as well.

I don't believe he was always corrupt.  Looking back to his single's pastor days, he seems to be flawed but not corrupt.  The more power he got, the more corrupt he became.

JH dying and FBC needing a pastor was his ultimate moment of choice (to either take or reject the ring of power - to use a LOTR analogy).  Once he became the pastor of FBC, I believe his chances of ending without failure were slim to none.

Jack Hyles himself called FBC a monster.  Why shouldn't we believe it would devour the one or ones who lead it?

 

[prophet]

That there is the biggest thing for me.  JS has been married for 30 plus years (something close to that I'm sure) he knew how to get in that girls head.  And for some reason, some people just do not get that very important peace of the puzzle, boggles my mind. 

They want to refer to it as "a relationship", whatever.

Absolutely.
It was ABUSE not a relationship. Anyone read Schaap's twisted letters to his victim? He tried to make his abuse sound spiritual!!

And this was not the only lady he tried this with.

It was a horrible abuse of authority. And the set up at FBCH facilitated it. No one questioned the pastor when he would make plans to be alone with the victim - in fact, the delivered the poor girl to him! The victim was told by the admin to completely trust him with her life.

H-E-L-L-O!

I am stunned her family hasn't sued FBCH over their part in her abuse.

I agree completely.  He manipulated a compromised, underage teen whom he was supposed to be pastoring and counseling.

You also must take into effect that Indiana has some of the most lenient laws in the land for sex offenders.  Indiana must take into consideration the other state's involvement.  They wanted to try him since it happened in their state and he was a figurehead in their state.  Good for Indiana.  Nail his sorry hide to the barn door.  He continues to blameshift, refusing to recognize the error of his way.  Unrepentant, I count him as an atheist.

Yes, he is a heathen to me as well.

I don't believe he was always corrupt.  Looking back to his single's pastor days, he seems to be flawed but not corrupt.  The more power he got, the more corrupt he became.

JH dying and FBC needing a pastor was his ultimate moment of choice (to either take or reject the ring of power - to use a LOTR analogy).  Once he became the pastor of FBC, I believe his chances of ending without failure were slim to none.

Jack Hyles himself called FBC a monster.  Why shouldn't we believe it would devour the one or ones who lead it?

We (B.C. and I) were referring to the Biblical admonition to treat an unrepentant man as if he were never saved.

 

[SwampHag]

I have been as hard on JS as anyone... BUT, to be honest, I think that 12 years is a little much for the crime.  Just look in NWI Times history, and you will find out most people with a similar crime get much less...

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/state-and-regional/illinois/school-custodian-sentenced-for-sex-with-student/article_2ab953be-b7e6-505c-9f05-8478e05d380c.html

I think this is a pretty similar example.  This guy was sentenced to 4 1/2 years

He *should* have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea.

 

[prophet]

I have been as hard on JS as anyone... BUT, to be honest, I think that 12 years is a little much for the crime.  Just look in NWI Times history, and you will find out most people with a similar crime get much less...

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/state-and-regional/illinois/school-custodian-sentenced-for-sex-with-student/article_2ab953be-b7e6-505c-9f05-8478e05d380c.html

I think this is a pretty similar example.  This guy was sentenced to 4 1/2 years

He *should* have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea.

Dont go all Bible on us, now!

 

[patriotic]

I have been as hard on JS as anyone... BUT, to be honest, I think that 12 years is a little much for the crime.  Just look in NWI Times history, and you will find out most people with a similar crime get much less...

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/state-and-regional/illinois/school-custodian-sentenced-for-sex-with-student/article_2ab953be-b7e6-505c-9f05-8478e05d380c.html

I think this is a pretty similar example.  This guy was sentenced to 4 1/2 years

He *should* have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea.

That's what I said when he was first sentenced and some people discussed how it seemed a bit excessive.  I figured then and still do that 12 years is an easier sentence than trying to swim with millstone. 

 

[prophet]

The man perverted the Gospel, blasphemed, told unthinkable lascivious filth to a girl who had been taught to worship him.

Hell won't be hot enough for this reprobate.

Yet, still, some of you clowns will sympathize.

Why don't we all look at it from God's view?
God made an example out of Schaap, that stings both ears of anyone who hears it.
That wasn't correction, he will never returned to "service".
It was judgement.
He lost everything, and will die a ruined beggar, probably at the hands of his fellow inmates, who won't put up with his arrogance.

 

[Timotheus]

The man perverted the Gospel, blasphemed, told unthinkable lascivious filth to a girl who had been taught to worship him.

Hell won't be hot enough for this reprobate.

Yet, still, some of you clowns will sympathize.

Why don't we all look at it from God's view?
God made an example out of Schaap, that stings both ears of anyone who hears it.
That wasn't correction, he will never returned to "service".
It was judgement.
He lost everything, and will die a ruined beggar, probably at the hands of his fellow inmates, who won't put up with his arrogance.

So what is your (and BC) position.  Is he (was he) saved or unsaved?

 

[prophet]

The man perverted the Gospel, blasphemed, told unthinkable lascivious filth to a girl who had been taught to worship him.

Hell won't be hot enough for this reprobate.

Yet, still, some of you clowns will sympathize.

Why don't we all look at it from God's view?
God made an example out of Schaap, that stings both ears of anyone who hears it.
That wasn't correction, he will never returned to "service".
It was judgement.
He lost everything, and will die a ruined beggar, probably at the hands of his fellow inmates, who won't put up with his arrogance.

So what is your (and BC) position.  Is he (was he) saved or unsaved?

My position is Jude's.

Jud 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

And I said this years ago.

 

[Timotheus]

The man perverted the Gospel, blasphemed, told unthinkable lascivious filth to a girl who had been taught to worship him.

Hell won't be hot enough for this reprobate.

Yet, still, some of you clowns will sympathize.

Why don't we all look at it from God's view?
God made an example out of Schaap, that stings both ears of anyone who hears it.
That wasn't correction, he will never returned to "service".
It was judgement.
He lost everything, and will die a ruined beggar, probably at the hands of his fellow inmates, who won't put up with his arrogance.

So what is your (and BC) position.  Is he (was he) saved or unsaved?

My position is Jude's.

Jud 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

And I said this years ago.

Jack Hyles never repented.  Saved or unsaved?

 

[prophet]

The man perverted the Gospel, blasphemed, told unthinkable lascivious filth to a girl who had been taught to worship him.

Hell won't be hot enough for this reprobate.

Yet, still, some of you clowns will sympathize.

Why don't we all look at it from God's view?
God made an example out of Schaap, that stings both ears of anyone who hears it.
That wasn't correction, he will never returned to "service".
It was judgement.
He lost everything, and will die a ruined beggar, probably at the hands of his fellow inmates, who won't put up with his arrogance.

So what is your (and BC) position.  Is he (was he) saved or unsaved?

My position is Jude's.

Jud 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

And I said this years ago.

Jack Hyles never repented.  Saved or unsaved?

This has what to do with Jude?

Jack Hyles was a charismatic Southern Baptist.

His doctrine was a mess.

His salvation?  I cant question it.

Lying to protect your family,  or job?
Saved people do that sometimes.

I have no reason to believe he was lost, do you?

 

[Timotheus]

The man perverted the Gospel, blasphemed, told unthinkable lascivious filth to a girl who had been taught to worship him.

Hell won't be hot enough for this reprobate.

Yet, still, some of you clowns will sympathize.

Why don't we all look at it from God's view?
God made an example out of Schaap, that stings both ears of anyone who hears it.
That wasn't correction, he will never returned to "service".
It was judgement.
He lost everything, and will die a ruined beggar, probably at the hands of his fellow inmates, who won't put up with his arrogance.

So what is your (and BC) position.  Is he (was he) saved or unsaved?

My position is Jude's.

Jud 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

And I said this years ago.

Jack Hyles never repented.  Saved or unsaved?

This has what to do with Jude?

Jack Hyles was a charismatic Southern Baptist.

His doctrine was a mess.

His salvation?  I cant question it.

Lying to protect your family,  or job?
Saved people do that sometimes.

I have no reason to believe he was lost, do you?

Nothing to do with Jude.
I jumped back to the comments you and BC made about him being as a heathen or an atheist because he was unrepentant.  I should have warned you. 

I don't believe JH was lost.

I believe that JS was saved.  I also believe in eternal security.  This not easy to reconcile in my mind.  I had an old Sunday school teacher who lost his mind at the end of his life.  He started cussing and such and his wife started questioning his salvation.    I believe that JS has lost his mind.  He has some weirdness in his past that we don't know about. 

 

[prophet]

The man perverted the Gospel, blasphemed, told unthinkable lascivious filth to a girl who had been taught to worship him.

Hell won't be hot enough for this reprobate.

Yet, still, some of you clowns will sympathize.

Why don't we all look at it from God's view?
God made an example out of Schaap, that stings both ears of anyone who hears it.
That wasn't correction, he will never returned to "service".
It was judgement.
He lost everything, and will die a ruined beggar, probably at the hands of his fellow inmates, who won't put up with his arrogance.

So what is your (and BC) position.  Is he (was he) saved or unsaved?

My position is Jude's.

Jud 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

And I said this years ago.

Jack Hyles never repented.  Saved or unsaved?

This has what to do with Jude?

Jack Hyles was a charismatic Southern Baptist.

His doctrine was a mess.

His salvation?  I cant question it.

Lying to protect your family,  or job?
Saved people do that sometimes.

I have no reason to believe he was lost, do you?

Nothing to do with Jude.
I jumped back to the comments you and BC made about him being as a heathen or an atheist because he was unrepentant.  I should have warned you. 

I don't believe JH was lost.

I believe that JS was saved.  I also believe in eternal security.  This not easy to reconcile in my mind.  I had an old Sunday school teacher who lost his mind at the end of his life.  He started cussing and such and his wife started questioning his salvation.    I believe that JS has lost his mind.  He has some weirdness in his past that we don't know about.

Nothing to do with eternal security.

The Bible tells us to treat those who say that they are a brother, but  will not repent, as heathen, remember?


Mat 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone:if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church:but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

1Co 5:11-13
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

This is what I was talking about.

But I have never thought he was saved, since I heard his "testimony", anyway.

The man perverted the Gospel, blasphemed, told unthinkable lascivious filth to a girl who had been taught to worship him.

Hell won't be hot enough for this reprobate.

Yet, still, some of you clowns will sympathize.

Why don't we all look at it from God's view?
God made an example out of Schaap, that stings both ears of anyone who hears it.
That wasn't correction, he will never returned to "service".
It was judgement.
He lost everything, and will die a ruined beggar, probably at the hands of his fellow inmates, who won't put up with his arrogance.

So what is your (and BC) position.  Is he (was he) saved or unsaved?

My position is Jude's.

Jud 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

And I said this years ago.

Jack Hyles never repented.  Saved or unsaved?

This has what to do with Jude?

Jack Hyles was a charismatic Southern Baptist.

His doctrine was a mess.

His salvation?  I cant question it.

Lying to protect your family,  or job?
Saved people do that sometimes.

I have no reason to believe he was lost, do you?

Nothing to do with Jude.
I jumped back to the comments you and BC made about him being as a heathen or an atheist because he was unrepentant.  I should have warned you. 

I don't believe JH was lost.

I believe that JS was saved.  I also believe in eternal security.  This not easy to reconcile in my mind.  I had an old Sunday school teacher who lost his mind at the end of his life.  He started cussing and such and his wife started questioning his salvation.    I believe that JS has lost his mind.  He has some weirdness in his past that we don't know about.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

The man perverted the Gospel, blasphemed, told unthinkable lascivious filth to a girl who had been taught to worship him.

Hell won't be hot enough for this reprobate.

Yet, still, some of you clowns will sympathize.

Why don't we all look at it from God's view?
God made an example out of Schaap, that stings both ears of anyone who hears it.
That wasn't correction, he will never returned to "service".
It was judgement.
He lost everything, and will die a ruined beggar, probably at the hands of his fellow inmates, who won't put up with his arrogance.

So what is your (and BC) position.  Is he (was he) saved or unsaved?

Romans 2 tells me that is not in my ability to make a determination.  Mat 18 and 1 Cor 5 tells me how to treat unrepentant people.  Speaking from my humanity - let him suffer for the pain he caused.  Speaking from a Scriptural understanding: He needs to be punished to bring him to a point of repentance so that he may glorify God.  Call it a Nebuchadnezzar time span if you want.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I believe that JS was saved.  I also believe in eternal security.  This not easy to reconcile in my mind.  I had an old Sunday school teacher who lost his mind at the end of his life.  He started cussing and such and his wife started questioning his salvation.    I believe that JS has lost his mind.  He has some weirdness in his past that we don't know about.

The common "Trump Card" of FBCH is "Your'e probably not even saved."  The phrase is used to manipulate much behavior modification.  I don't like that phrase at all.  It is based on performance based Christianity and the IFB model of the prosperity gospel.  This phrase has caused much damage among the churches where it is hurled forth as a weapon of manipulation.

The weirdness in his past isn't weird, it is more common than you think.  I know about it.  All too well.  He never did move beyond it, he only managed it better for a period of time.