Hold on and trust the Lord

[ALAYMAN]

So, if that is an objective fact, you won't mind answering my question.

Did somebody say something somewhere about church attendance being the ultimate and/or only barometer of the moral temperature of a country?

Despite the effort to govern society on Christian (and more specifically Protestant) principles, the first decades of colonial era in most colonies were marked by irregular religious practices, minimal communication between remote settlers, and a population of

 

[samspade]

Actually, the "good ole days" are a matter of perspective. For instance, many white Americans think that the 50's were a great time to be in this country. But most older minorities I know don't share that sentiment. Many republicans view the 80's as a golden era. But people working in manufacturing suffered a lot during those years. That's the problem with harkening back to a previous time. While it may have been golden for you, it may have been hell for your neighbor. (Not arguing, just making an observation)

Bro, I always appreciate your contributions, whether we agree or not.  In this case you have a point, that perspective matters, but given that caveat, I think it fair to say that the general shamelessness of American culture is noticeably more callous than the 50's.  In that regard, Bob H's remarks are spot on when we consider the general trajectory of mapping the moral decline of a culture.  No doubt that our nation has (relatively speaking) given itself over to flagrant sexual debauchery, demonstrably so in the display of government sanctioned sodomy and murder of babies for merely the convenience of birth control.

I agree that we've lost our sense of shame in regards to sexual sins. On that point Bob H's remarks ring true. However, in the 50's we had no sense of shame in regards to our culturally acceptable racism. Was that sin as bad as what we have today? If you are african-american you would most likely say yes.

As I've stated before, I go to a very integrated church (40% black, 50% white, white pastor just retired and new pastor is black). A few years ago one of our older members, a black, woman doctor, told what happened to her in the early 60's. While traveling with a college singing group (all students black, choir leader white) their van was stopped by a couple of NC state troopers. Because a white woman (choir director) was driving a van full of black students, the troopers felt it was ok to rape the teacher. They took turns raping the woman on the trunk lid of their patrol car while the other one kept the students confined to the van at gun point. No disciplinary action was ever taken against the troopers. Would that teacher or any of those students agree that we are less moral as a society today than fifty years ago? I don't think so.

I say all of that to point out that our perspective of the United States is largely influenced by our race, gender, economic status, political leanings, etc. You and I can agree that, from our perspective, the country is far less moral than it used to be. For that elderly doctor at my church, we've never been a moral country. It's just a different form of immorality today.

 

[Bob H]

Isaiah 8:12-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

12

 

[samspade]

Isaiah 8:12-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

12

 

[ALAYMAN]

...
I say all of that to point out that our perspective of the United States is largely influenced by our race, gender, economic status, political leanings, etc. You and I can agree that, from our perspective, the country is far less moral than it used to be. For that elderly doctor at my church, we've never been a moral country. It's just a different form of immorality today.

Truly tragic story, and I agree that America never has been an Eden.  Maybe you're right, and I hope so, but I don't think so. In television, movies and music profanity, gratuitous violence, and disrespect for authority (especially parental) is a staple. Pornography is available to everyone for free 24/7.  Hip hop music, the predominant music of youth culture, exceeds all previous forms of music in its rampant use of vularity, profanity, drug glorification and violence.  Moral relativism is the norm.  Gambling is just another past-time.  What is the definition of "is", and is "3rd base" acceptable with my girlfriend so long as I don't go all the way?  Teens are told that they can get the morning after pill, without the consent of their parents, and Johnny has two daddys.  If a boy wants to come to school dressed as a girl, hey, that's his right to express him, itself as it sees fit, and the parents don't have a right to know.  "Conversion therapy" is against the law, and parents can go to jail if they try to force it on junior. Marijuana for recreation has been okayed, and people aren't drunkards, they're dysfunctional, in need of therapy.  Christians think nothing of voting for a candidate who believes in partial birth abortion and advocates killing babies in the womb if the child isn't the gender that the parents want.  I could go on, but I fear we just would be better off agreeing to disagree, and doing what you said, pray for those in authority over us.  Our hope is in the gospel, not morality, culture, or legislation.  We have failed at getting that message out, as American Christianity has misplaced its priorities, substituting a life of ease and the prosperity gospel in place of one of sacrifice and discipleship.  We are so infused with the culture, fearing to be labeled with the f-word ("fundy"), that we've ceased to be salt and light.  Why would a person perceive their need for Christ when we are already just like them.  If we speak of God's judgment for our atrocities we're perceived as kooks who believe in a malevolent and vindictive God, despite numerous Old and New Testament warnings on people groups and individuals that live as if God is asleep.  Adrian Rogers and Billy (or Ruth) Graham said it best...


"Sin that used to slink down back alleys now struts down Main Street."--Rogers

""If God doesn't soon bring judgment upon America, He'll have to go back and apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah!" --Graham

 

[samspade]

...
I say all of that to point out that our perspective of the United States is largely influenced by our race, gender, economic status, political leanings, etc. You and I can agree that, from our perspective, the country is far less moral than it used to be. For that elderly doctor at my church, we've never been a moral country. It's just a different form of immorality today.

Truly tragic story, and I agree that America never has been an Eden.  Maybe you're right, and I hope so, but I don't think so. In television, movies and music profanity, gratuitous violence, and disrespect for authority (especially parental) is a staple. Pornography is available to everyone for free 24/7.  Hip hop music, the predominant music of youth culture, exceeds all previous forms of music in its rampant use of vularity, profanity, drug glorification and violence.  Moral relativism is the norm.  Gambling is just another past-time.  What is the definition of "is", and is "3rd base" acceptable with my girlfriend so long as I don't go all the way?  Teens are told that they can get the morning after pill, without the consent of their parents, and Johnny has two daddys.  If a boy wants to come to school dressed as a girl, hey, that's his right to express him, itself as it sees fit, and the parents don't have a right to know.  "Conversion therapy" is against the law, and parents can go to jail if they try to force it on junior. Marijuana for recreation has been okayed, and people aren't drunkards, they're dysfunctional, in need of therapy.  Christians think nothing of voting for a candidate who believes in partial birth abortion and advocates killing babies in the womb if the child isn't the gender that the parents want.  I could go on, but I fear we just would be better off agreeing to disagree, and doing what you said, pray for those in authority over us.  Our hope is in the gospel, not morality, culture, or legislation.  We have failed at getting that message out, as American Christianity has misplaced its priorities, substituting a life of ease and the prosperity gospel for one of sacrifice and discipleship.  We are so infused with the culture, fearing to be labeled with the f-word ("fundy"), that we've ceased to be salt and light.  Why would a person perceive their need for Christ when we are already just like them.  If we speak of God's judgment for our atrocities we're perceived as kooks who believe in a malevolent and vindictive God, despite numerous Old and New Testament warnings on people groups and individuals that live as if God is asleep.  Adrian Rogers and Billy (or Ruth) Graham said it best...


"Sin that used to slink down back alleys now struts down Main Street."--Rogers

""If God doesn't soon bring judgment upon America, He'll have to go back and apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah!" --Graham

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I too think that our society has degenerated tremendously in my lifetime. I just don't think there was ever a time it was utopia. I wish some things were as they were, but not all things. And maybe that is what I'm trying to express. We long for a country that never really existed because we weren't made for this world.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Hate to tell you this fella's, the good ole US of A is not the lost tribe of Israel.

The lost tribe of Israel, the tribe of Israel or the Church wasn't mentioned. I hate to have to tell you this fella but reading is you friend. It had nuttin to do with nuttin

No, you were discussing the election and our country, most fundies tend to hold the USA up to that light

You feel just by who was elected, that somehow we are in trouble?

There was more than one office up for election. My reference was to the election in general. And the election just re-affirmed that judgement was already started before last tuesday.  And we are in trouble unless you deny Rom 1. And if ya do we mighta as well end the discussion now

I didn't know that Romans was talking about national sins

It doesn't matter who is in office, Jehovah still reigns...what is there to fear

No one said otherwise. God is still on the Throne young fella. There was no sign of fear in my  post and I believe that these last days are a most exciting time to live. I will say I was somewhat disappointed about last tuesday but I'm no way discouraged.

That really didn't come across that way, sounded like fear to me



instead of looking to elections for change, how about looking in the mirror and start there with the Gospel? Then we can start to change our families. Then we can talk and get to meet our neighbors and commune with them with the Gospel, then to our neighborhoods, our place of work, recreation and our houses of worship. Living out the Gospel will only change our neighborhoods, communities,cities then our country.

 

[ALAYMAN]

We long for a country that never really existed because we weren't made for this world.

Indeed.

Heb 11:10  For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

instead of looking to elections for change, how about looking in the mirror and start there with the Gospel? Then we can start to change our families. Then we can talk and get to meet our neighbors and commune with them with the Gospel, then to our neighborhoods, our place of work, recreation and our houses of worship. Living out the Gospel will only change our neighborhoods, communities,cities then our country.

Why do you assume that Bob does not trust the gospel to do its work?  Maybe he's just expressing emotional disappointment that the gospel is being rejected wholesale to America's own destruction, much as Jesus lamented over Jerusalem doing the same (Matthew 23:37)?

 

[Recovering IFB]

instead of looking to elections for change, how about looking in the mirror and start there with the Gospel? Then we can start to change our families. Then we can talk and get to meet our neighbors and commune with them with the Gospel, then to our neighborhoods, our place of work, recreation and our houses of worship. Living out the Gospel will only change our neighborhoods, communities,cities then our country.

Why do you assume that Bob does not trust the gospel to do its work?  Maybe he's just expressing emotional disappointment that the gospel is being rejected wholesale to America's own destruction, much as Jesus lamented over Jerusalem doing the same (Matthew 23:37)?
[/quote]

Frankly, he didn't mention it, but your right, I should give him the benefit of doubt It seems at times people want to make nation building out of the Gospel or make America a theocratic nation which it was never supposed to be.