How did the Body of Christ come to be comprised of 25-40% unbelievers?

[Castor Muscular]

I figure this deserves its own thread. 

 

[bgwilkinson]

Unbelievers are not part of the body of Christ.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Unbelievers are not part of the body of Christ.

The subject line is meant to ask:  How did the church, which was originally the Body of Christ, turn into the "church", which is now comprised of 25-40% unbelievers? 

 

[Castor Muscular]

Perhaps this question deserves its own thread, but I'll ask it here:

How would you go about purifying the church so that it once again is comprised of near 100% believers?  This assumes the church (assembly) is committed to its original purpose, not a meeting place where one hopes to convert the unconverted. 

 

[rsc2a]

Perhaps this question deserves its own thread, but I'll ask it here:

How would you go about purifying the church so that it once again is comprised of near 100% believers?  This assumes the church is committed to its original purpose, not a meeting place where one hopes to convert the unconverted.

You don't. You act like the Church and if they hang around, great! You have a convert! If not, maybe they at least took something from what they heard.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Perhaps this question deserves its own thread, but I'll ask it here:

How would you go about purifying the church so that it once again is comprised of near 100% believers?  This assumes the church is committed to its original purpose, not a meeting place where one hopes to convert the unconverted.

You don't. You act like the Church and if they hang around, great! You have a convert! If not, maybe they at least took something from what they heard.

Hanging around is not conversion.  Either that, or the average church is not acting like a church, because you still have 25-40% unbelievers attending every week (hanging around). 

Or perhaps I should ask, if what you say is true, what does acting like a church look like?  Obviously we're not seeing it.

 

[Excelsior]

Um, so someone asked all the people in church if they were "saved" and 25-40% of them said no? I mean, that seems odd. If they were asked, I would think you could nail down the percentage to something like 33 1/3%. If asked and they said "yes" they were saved, how do you decide they are not?

 

[Castor Muscular]

Um, so someone asked all the people in church if they were "saved" and 25-40% of them said no? I mean, that seems odd. If they were asked, I would think you could nail down the percentage to something like 33 1/3%. If asked and they said "yes" they were saved, how do you decide they are not?

The number came from a separate thread.  Even pastors I know say up to 50% of their church is unsaved.  If you want to debate that, please start another thread.  This one assumes it is approximately correct. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

Perhaps this question deserves its own thread, but I'll ask it here:

How would you go about purifying the church so that it once again is comprised of near 100% believers?  This assumes the church (assembly) is committed to its original purpose, not a meeting place where one hopes to convert the unconverted.

didn;t calvinists try something like that before?....

like a few hundred years ago?.......  :

of course the catholics tried it too with their great inquisition...  :-\

but isn;t better to just take a fellow church members word for it that are a believer
until God works on their heart or their actions prove otherwise?....  ???

Perhaps I should have asked, "IF YOU WANTED to purify the church, how would you go about it?"  The purpose of the question was to discover how it got this way.  If I want to lose weight, I need to eat less and exercise.  That tells me how I got fat.  I ate too much and didn't exercise. 

 

[Excelsior]

Okay, it isn't a separate issue. If you wish to "purify" the church, then how can you do that unless you have a list of what comprises someone who is "saved" and how to determine if they are or are not true believers?

Oh, and I'm pretty sure it isn't up to us to purify anything. That is a work of God. We don't have that kind of insight or power. So, have a good discussion, hope you figure out how to be the Holy Spirit.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Okay, it isn't a separate issue. If you wish to "purify" the church, then how can you do that unless you have a list of what comprises someone who is "saved" and how to determine if they are or are not true believers?

Oh, and I'm pretty sure it isn't up to us to purify anything. That is a work of God. We don't have that kind of insight or power. So, have a good discussion, hope you figure out how to be the Holy Spirit.

You and Aleshanee made me sorry I asked the purify question.  As I said to her, the question was meant to discover how it got this way, not to initiate a debate on how to purify the church. 

Rsc2a gave the best answer, IMO, in the spirit of the question.  But the next question remains, what does it look like to act like a church such that some unbelievers are converted and the rest leave?  That might lead to understanding why 25%-40% of church attendees are unsaved, but keep coming to church every week. 

 

[Excelsior]

I would say that the way it got that way is tradition. In our Country, we have a religious tradition. It started with the Puritans and it continued through the "Great Revivals." You have people who are traditionally Christian without actually being committed Christians.

This is no new problem. This started back when the Puritans came to this country. The first generation was devout. They even set up their communities to be run by Christians. In order to be in political office, you had to be a believer and church member. In order to be a church member, you had to be a believer. The problem was that two or three generations in, some of the offspring were not actually making a commitment to Christ. They weren't allowed to be a member of the church, so the older folks decided to give them another type of status where they weren't full blown members, but they were considered a lesser type of member of the church.

Now, you can see there was erosion right from the start. It is human nature. They didn't want to kick their children/grandchildren out of the church, I'm certain they enjoyed worshiping with the family together. So, they skirted their own man made rules to allow it. It is no different in succeeding generations in different area's.

What can we do about it? Probably not much. That is why it is up to the work of the Holy Spirit within the church. If we are living right/doing right, then most unbelievers will not want to spend all their waking hours within the church, unless they are actively seeking what it has to offer. I'm sure there are some who would stick it out to please a loved one, but I have to believe that it is fewer than it used to be based on the self centeredness of our society as a whole.

 

[Castor Muscular]

If we are living right/doing right, then most unbelievers will not want to spend all their waking hours within the church, unless they are actively seeking what it has to offer. I'm sure there are some who would stick it out to please a loved one, but I have to believe that it is fewer than it used to be based on the self centeredness of our society as a whole.

But the fact remains that the 25%-40% are spending their Sundays at church.  So am I to interpret what you're saying to mean that we're obviously not living/doing right at the church?  And nobody's talking about spending all their waking hours.  I'm talking about "church", with respect to what it means today. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

Perhaps it might be helpful to speculate as to why an unbeliever would want to go to church.

1. Because that's what their family did, or how they were raised.
2. To be seen going to church.
3. It's a social event.
4. They like the entertainment value (music, pastor's performance, whatever).
5. To show off their new clothes, car, kids, whatever.  Maybe this is the same as #3. 

Perhaps someone could come up with more reasons. 

Now -- what reasons would an unbeliever have to purposely avoid going to church? 

And what might we learn from the answers to these questions?

 

[Excelsior]

Again, there are people who are just very traditional. These people probably come to church on Sunday morning, but I would doubt that most are the Sunday p.m. and Wednesday p.m. crowd.

Honestly, I don't think that many of the regular attenders are not "saved." I suppose it depends on how you wish to define it and what you think makes someone a legitimate Christian. Is it faith in Christ alone? Is it someone who has faith in Christ and is doing a certain number of things within the church? Is it someone who proclaims they have put their faith in Christ but you aren't certain because they drink or smoke? I don't know how to begin to judge who is actually saved in a church. If they do not come out and say, "Hey, church is cool and all, but I don't really believe it," then how are you supposed to figure that out.

Each person matures and grows in grace in a different way and at a different pace. I'm not going to say that someone isn't saved just because they don't grow the same way I did.

For example, my parents were unbelievers until they were almost 30. They got saved and there was a transformation. It was pretty quick, too. Same with my uncle and aunt. However, others in the family got saved and it took time for them to mature and grow. So, if I were looking at my parents and comparing other family members to them, I would say, "Hey, they really aren't saved because I can't see that transformation." However, it's not my job to do that. Sure enough after some years, I saw how much change God had worked in their life. It took longer, it looked different, but it was there. So, I'm not certain what indicators you are looking at to judge the salvation of someone in order to find them acceptable or not in the church. I'm frankly confused by it.

 

[Excelsior]

Let me add that I live in a Northern state. We do not have the same cultural climate as the South where everyone is a Christian and  Baptist. So, I could be coming at this with a way different perspective.

 

[Izdaari]

Let me add that I live in a Northern state. We do not have the same cultural climate as the South where everyone is a Christian and  Baptist. So, I could be coming at this with a way different perspective.

Same here. I live in Seattle, one of the most unchurched cities in the USA. There is no social pressure to go to church, unless of course you're in a church-y family or other such peer group.

 

[Ransom]

The subject line is meant to ask:  How did the church, which was originally the Body of Christ, turn into the "church", which is now comprised of 25-40% unbelievers? 

Paul and the author of Hebrews, writing letters to local churches, warns of the danger of falling away from the faith - something that would be impossible for a believer called by God and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. There have always been unbelievers within the assembly.

 

[Castor Muscular]

The subject line is meant to ask:  How did the church, which was originally the Body of Christ, turn into the "church", which is now comprised of 25-40% unbelievers? 

Paul and the author of Hebrews, writing letters to local churches, warns of the danger of falling away from the faith - something that would be impossible for a believer called by God and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. There have always been unbelievers within the assembly.

I don't doubt that, but I suspect having 25%-40% (and according to some pastors up to 50%) of the assembly being unbelievers who religiously attend every week is probably of more recent origin.  How recent, I don't know. 

If I were to guess (and it's only a guess), it's probably due primarily to the social aspects of church attendance.  There are other factors, but it's "the thing to do" and it's not only socially acceptable, it's socially commendable.  That wasn't the case when the church was being persecuted.  I doubt if 25%-50% of the assembly in China meeting secretly in homes are unbelievers. 

 

[Ransom]

I don't doubt that, but I suspect having 25%-40% (and according to some pastors up to 50%) of the assembly being unbelievers who religiously attend every week is probably of more recent origin.  How recent, I don't know.

*shrug* Then you're not really interested in a theological answer, just a demographic one, which interests me not in the slightest. Take a survey.