Interesting reformed church visit today, a report card.

Ransom said:
As I've been fond of telling other fundies for years, "is too!" is not an argument.
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When you ass/u/me something, you make an ass out of you and me. You started out with the assumptions. I gave you the counter assumptions. Maybe you should practice what you preach.
 
biscuit1953 said:
When you ass/u/me something, you make an ass out of you and me. You started out with the assumptions. I gave you the counter assumptions. Maybe you should practice what you preach.
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I didn't make any assumptions. I identified your assumptions.

You then made Assumption #3: that I believe the opposite of your Assumptions #1 and 2.
 
ALAYMAN said:
I know a godly young man ready to go on the mission field who likes Christian metal. It is an exercise in cognitive dissonance in my estimation, but his testimony is solid. I just can’t fathom how that sound is God honoring.
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churches have been mixing entertainment with worship for so long now they have lost the ability to tell the difference......
 
aleshanee said:
churches have been mixing entertainment with worship for so long now they have lost the ability to tell the difference......
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Well, there's the rub. As I've said in the past, there are certain musical genres that wouldn't be suitable for worship. Since worship music is congregational, it needs to be not too technically complex, of a musical range suitable for the average person to sing, and quiet enough that we can hear each other. "Harder" genres like punk, industrial, and metal don't meet those criteria. (They're also fairly aggressive and angry, so incongruous with what should be a joyous and celebratory experience.)

But I don't personally mind metal, though it's not all my cup of tea (definitely not the more extreme forms like the aforementioned Enoch), and I have a few Christian metal CDs. They're fine as entertainment (most contemporary Christian music existing not for corporate worship, but as an alternative to worldly entertainment).

As for what is "God honoring," I don't get into debates about what mechanical sounds, tones, and chords "honour God." Without a particle of Scripture or theology to support them, it comes down to "well, I don't like it, so neither does God."
 
Ransom said:
…

As for what is "God honoring," I don't get into debates about what mechanical sounds, tones, and chords "honour God." Without a particle of Scripture or theology to support them, it comes down to "well, I don't like it, so neither does God."
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"I know it when I see it"—Potter Stewart

😉


As far as “mechanical sounds, tones, and chords”, just like ABCDEFG is amoral, string them into sentences and they suddenly take on a moral tone. Same with music.
 
ALAYMAN said:
As far as “mechanical sounds, tones, and chords”, just like ABCDEFG is amoral, string them into sentences and they suddenly take on a moral tone. Same with music.
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But is CCCGABCBAG CBAGAFEDC more moral if it's played on a pipe organ or an electric guitar?
 
Ransom said:
Then why do the non-elect pay for them in hell?

Also, you have yet to give a definition of "propitiation" (1 John 2:1).
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Where in scripture does it say the non-elect are paying for their sins in hell?

My understanding is that hell is the consequence for not having faith in Christ.
 
Bruh said:
Where in scripture does it say the non-elect are paying for their sins in hell?

My understanding is that hell is the consequence for not having faith in Christ.
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Much damage has been done to the cause of the gospel by telling the world that they will go to hell “because they don’t believe in Jesus.” It seems unreasonable that God would eternally damn them for not believing something. Ray Comfort explains it this way:

If a man jumps out of a plane without a parachute, he will perish because he transgressed the law of gravity. Had he put on a parachute, he would have been saved. In one sense, he perished because he didn’t put on the parachute. But the primary reason he died was because he broke the law of gravity. If a sinner refuses to trust in Jesus Christ when he passes through the door of death, he will perish. This isn’t because he refused to trust the Savior, but because he transgressed the Law of God. Had he “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 13:14), he would have been saved; but because he refused to repent, he will suffer the full consequences of his sin. Sin is not “failing to believe in Jesus.” Sin is “transgression of the Law” (1 John 3:4).

A few years ago we were discussing on this forum the primary and secondary causes of people’s eternal destination on how people’s eternal destination is decided by a sovereign God, but eternal punishment is still tied to one’s sins. Ransom gave the illustration that if you ask a prison inmate, “Why are you here? And he answered, Because the judge sentenced me to 20 years in prison and the governor won’t pardon me.” You’re not getting a straight answer. There is more to his story.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,

Paul clearly teaches that God receives glory in his wrath as well as his mercy. God allows some vessels to incur the just penalty of their sin. God doesn’t make men sinful, but he leaves them in the sin they have chosen. Most non-Calvinists vew election in a negative light, however, if God did not choose some for salvation, then none would be saved (Rom 3:10-12). Election shows the grace of God. Going back to God holding men responsible for their own sins, if the clay pot repents, its destination is changed (Jer 18:6-10).
 
Ransom said:
But is CCCGABCBAG CBAGAFEDC more moral if it's played on a pipe organ or an electric guitar?
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What is that? A 10/9 time signature? Are these notes or chords? I don't have perfect pitch but looking at the progression as written, I'm thinking it's going to sound chaotic and dissonant whether played on a pipe organ or a guitar.
 
abcaines said:
What is that? A 10/9 time signature? Are these notes or chords? I don't have perfect pitch but looking at the progression as written, I'm thinking it's going to sound chaotic and dissonant whether played on a pipe organ or a guitar.
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I didn't include the rhythm; couldn't think of a convenient way of transcribing it without spending time messing around with MuseScore.

It's the first line of "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God."
 
Ransom said:
I didn't include rhythm. It's the first line of "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God."
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In my mind, I was climbing up the C scale assigning a single beat per note.

Without context, anything can come off disjointed and chaotic.
***
With his tapping and hammering techniques, EVH made his instrumental, Eruption sound like a Bach concerto. Was that holy?
 
biscuit1953 said:
Much damage has been done to the cause of the gospel by telling the world that they will go to hell “because they don’t believe in Jesus.” It seems unreasonable that God would eternally damn them for not believing something. Ray Comfort explains it this way:

If a man jumps out of a plane without a parachute, he will perish because he transgressed the law of gravity. Had he put on a parachute, he would have been saved. In one sense, he perished because he didn’t put on the parachute. But the primary reason he died was because he broke the law of gravity. If a sinner refuses to trust in Jesus Christ when he passes through the door of death, he will perish. This isn’t because he refused to trust the Savior, but because he transgressed the Law of God. Had he “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 13:14), he would have been saved; but because he refused to repent, he will suffer the full consequences of his sin. Sin is not “failing to believe in Jesus.” Sin is “transgression of the Law” (1 John 3:4).

A few years ago we were discussing on this forum the primary and secondary causes of people’s eternal destination on how people’s eternal destination is decided by a sovereign God, but eternal punishment is still tied to one’s sins. Ransom gave the illustration that if you ask a prison inmate, “Why are you here? And he answered, Because the judge sentenced me to 20 years in prison and the governor won’t pardon me.” You’re not getting a straight answer. There is more to his story.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,

Paul clearly teaches that God receives glory in his wrath as well as his mercy. God allows some vessels to incur the just penalty of their sin. God doesn’t make men sinful, but he leaves them in the sin they have chosen. Most non-Calvinists vew election in a negative light, however, if God did not choose some for salvation, then none would be saved (Rom 3:10-12). Election shows the grace of God. Going back to God holding men responsible for their own sins, if the clay pot repents, its destination is changed (Jer 18:6-10).
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I should have been more clear. Yes I agree that it is our sin against God that sends us to hell.
 
Ransom said:
So they're in hell as punishment for their sin.

But if Jesus died for the sins of everyone everywhere, how did he overlook that one?
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Jesus didn’t overlook anything. He paid the price for every sinner who ever lived; it is the sinner who refuses that payment thereby facing eternal judgment. The conundrum for every Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike is the fact that although God has chosen the elect from the foundation of the world, the Bible is clear that men are still held responsible for rejecting the gospel. A paradox, but a truth found in scripture whether we fully understand it or not.
 
biscuit1953 said:
He paid the price for every sinner who ever lived; it is the sinner who refuses that payment thereby facing eternal judgment.
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Payment wasn't given to him; it was given to the Father, to whom it was owed. It wasn't the sinner's to refuse.

biscuit1953 said:
The conundrum for every Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike is the fact that although God has chosen the elect from the foundation of the world, the Bible is clear that men are still held responsible for rejecting the gospel.
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This isn't a conundrum at all. Calvinists believe men are responsible for their own sins and that God ordained those sins for his own purposes. See Genesis 50:20, Acts 4:27-28, and pretty much the whole of Habakkuk.

Then look up "compatibilism," if for some strange reason you think this is a wholly new argument that no one has ever answered before.
 
Ransom said:
Payment wasn't given to him; it was given to the Father, to whom it was owed. It wasn't the sinner's to refuse.



This isn't a conundrum at all. Calvinists believe men are responsible for their own sins and that God ordained those sins for his own purposes. See Genesis 50:20, Acts 4:27-28, and pretty much the whole of Habakkuk.

Then look up "compatibilism," if for some strange reason you think this is a wholly new argument that no one has ever answered before.
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When Jesus paid the price for sin, it satisfied the Father, not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world (2 John 2:2). It is the Calvinists who are tied to the T.U.L.I.P. acronym and use it as equal authority with scripture who are the ones rejecting the clear statement in Peter 2:1 that the payment included false teachers who bring in damnable heresies. Instead of taking the verse as it is written, they assume it isn’t talking about Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. They must do mental gymnastics to make it fit the “L” in the acronym.
 
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