Introduction

TruthBearer said:
Bruh said:
Cicero said:
Who cares if YOU believe it or not. I certainly don't give a rip Bruh whether you do or don't believe there are 14 women or even 1. He was confronted many times. Those men are Man enough to meet face to face and Man enough to with-hold assault and battery. They are wise enought to let God have his way with Tom. Looks as if that is taking place with God scattering his sheep. Enough said.

If these so say men had any back bone they would smash the guys face in and the sheep would still be scattered.  :D

I'm not denying that he didn't do this, what I am saying is that where are the men?

So a real man would resort to violence over a text message? You have a lot to learn about real men.

Opps! I have misunderstood the mess that was going on over there.  So, the mass exodus is over a simple innocence text.  O.k I gotcha.  Backsliders!!! 
 
TruthBearer said:
Bruh said:
TruthBearer said:
Bruh said:
JustABigKid said:
Bruh said:
Cicero said:
Who cares if YOU believe it or not. I certainly don't give a rip Bruh whether you do or don't believe there are 14 women or even 1. He was confronted many times. Those men are Man enough to meet face to face and Man enough to with-hold assault and battery. They are wise enought to let God have his way with Tom. Looks as if that is taking place with God scattering his sheep. Enough said.

If these so say men had any back bone they would smash the guys face in and the sheep would still be scattered.  :D

I'm not denying that he didn't do this, what I am saying is that where are the men?

As Cicero stated the true men are the ones that went to him face to face and confronted him. Then despite knowing that they would be talked bad about and ridiculed left the church when Tom was un-repented. While getting into a fight and beating the crap out of him would seem like the best thing to do it probably would have hurt the cause. But by simply confronted him and then leaving it opened the eyes to many more and Tom could not hide behind anything.

If they were to have simply gone and punched him he could have used it to keep people blinded to the truth but instead with discernment they did not and thus many others saw the light and got and are continuing to do so.

The "CAUSE" are you serious?  Hurt the cause, really?  The Cause, would of been him texting my wife.  You boys sure are different up around WHBC.  Maybe ole Jim Vineyard got one thing right, you bunch of pantie wearing sissy's.

I can see why your wife would be texting another man for advice.

So, if another man text your wife, in an inappropriate way, you would be like, Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord and leave it alone........O.k?  I gotcha buddy.  :D

No I would bash his head in and get thrown in prison for 20 years to life so I could protect her from a cell phone.

I really did laugh our loud.  :)

You need to refrain yourself.  If you do that, you your wife and Tom would be on 60 minutes and the story would be a love triangle.  Dummy!  J/K about the dummy part. LOL!!

O.k I misunderstood the whole story.  It was Innocent text that caused the mass exodus.  Backsliders!!!   
 
Bruh said:
TruthBearer said:
Bruh said:
TruthBearer said:
Bruh said:
JustABigKid said:
Bruh said:
Cicero said:
Who cares if YOU believe it or not. I certainly don't give a rip Bruh whether you do or don't believe there are 14 women or even 1. He was confronted many times. Those men are Man enough to meet face to face and Man enough to with-hold assault and battery. They are wise enought to let God have his way with Tom. Looks as if that is taking place with God scattering his sheep. Enough said.

If these so say men had any back bone they would smash the guys face in and the sheep would still be scattered.  :D

I'm not denying that he didn't do this, what I am saying is that where are the men?

As Cicero stated the true men are the ones that went to him face to face and confronted him. Then despite knowing that they would be talked bad about and ridiculed left the church when Tom was un-repented. While getting into a fight and beating the crap out of him would seem like the best thing to do it probably would have hurt the cause. But by simply confronted him and then leaving it opened the eyes to many more and Tom could not hide behind anything.

If they were to have simply gone and punched him he could have used it to keep people blinded to the truth but instead with discernment they did not and thus many others saw the light and got and are continuing to do so.

The "CAUSE" are you serious?  Hurt the cause, really?  The Cause, would of been him texting my wife.  You boys sure are different up around WHBC.  Maybe ole Jim Vineyard got one thing right, you bunch of pantie wearing sissy's.

I can see why your wife would be texting another man for advice.

So, if another man text your wife, in an inappropriate way, you would be like, Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord and leave it alone........O.k?  I gotcha buddy.  :D

No I would bash his head in and get thrown in prison for 20 years to life so I could protect her from a cell phone.

I really did laugh our loud.  :)

You need to refrain yourself.  If you do that, you your wife and Tom would be on 60 minutes and the story would be a love triangle.  Dummy!  J/K about the dummy part. LOL!!

O.k I misunderstood the whole story.  It was Innocent text that caused the mass exodus.  Backsliders!!! 

Most women I know let emotions control their decisions.

I hope you have a good lawyer because he sent a text to my wife isn't going to keep you out of jail. Then your wife and your kids will be consoled by a Pastor like Tommy boy while you sit in jail.

That is a good way to solve the problem so keep bashing heads or at least talking tough behind a computer screen.

You can have the last word because I am not going to keep trying to educate you.
 
It will cost you 60 to 100 dollars to get out of jail.  I 'm not telling you he should dead.  Jack the guys jaw and go home.  LOL!!
 
Wow. I can feel my intelligence level dropping reading this thread. Can someone call AlvinMartinezVoice and tell him we need him back.

There were good people "stuck" in that church for whatever reason, and whatever reason finally got them to leave, I am happy for them. They deserve better.
 
Cicero said:
Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a long time (years) FF reader or you might even call me a troll on the OBC site. I'm a born again Christian and former member of WHBC and you might even call me a former koolaid drinker. If I divulge too much info, the WHBC staff (and I know they have eyes on this site) will figure out who I am and try their best to ruin my entire family by sending letters of discontent and lies across the nation to various churches along with a certain blog that supposedly is seen around the world telling the same lies by the same liar. With that said, I will say, I was a member for a very long time but I will not say how long due to the above statement. I will admit, I stayed way too long but I will not explain why.
Why am I just now getting involved in the FF site you might ask?
My answer is that I am fed up with the lies and deceit spewing from 5517 NW 23rd. I am sick of the holier-than-thou attitudes coming from every staff member of this church from the pastor to the secretary. Their vemonous HATE for all other Bible believing Christians that have left WHBC and are happily serving Christ in other churches around OKC is nothing but cultish. In closing. I thank the LORD that he has opened my eyes and heart to what loving and praising GOD is all about by placing my family in a church that is Christ centered instead of man centered. May God have mercy on them.

Welcome.

I've kind of been in your place.

Be wary of over-correcting; it is the scum at WHBC that has let you down, not "IFB churches", and certainly not God.

Watch out for bitterness (yes, I'm not afraid of that word).  Yes, the church leadership did some bad things and made poor decisions -- but there were some blessings that God gave, even in a bad situation.  I have to fight to not slide down the alley of "everything there was always terrible" attitude.

Just some notes from someone who has been down the path, for what it's worth.
 
Indifference engine said:
Wow. I can feel my intelligence level dropping reading this thread. Can someone call AlvinMartinezVoice and tell him we need him back.

There were good people "stuck" in that church for whatever reason, and whatever reason finally got them to leave, I am happy for them. They deserve better.

Sorry Indifference engines, after years of reading this forum, I should have known better than to respond to childish ignorance. Sometimes I just can't help it, Please, Please no one call back AMV.

Yes, there were many stuck or felt that way, there are still a few good people at WHBC for some reason or other. I believe some might still be praying for change. I can not and will not answer for them as to why. I just know they are good people. (SOME of them)
 
Walt said:
Cicero said:
Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a long time (years) FF reader or you might even call me a troll on the OBC site. I'm a born again Christian and former member of WHBC and you might even call me a former koolaid drinker. If I divulge too much info, the WHBC staff (and I know they have eyes on this site) will figure out who I am and try their best to ruin my entire family by sending letters of discontent and lies across the nation to various churches along with a certain blog that supposedly is seen around the world telling the same lies by the same liar. With that said, I will say, I was a member for a very long time but I will not say how long due to the above statement. I will admit, I stayed way too long but I will not explain why.
Why am I just now getting involved in the FF site you might ask?
My answer is that I am fed up with the lies and deceit spewing from 5517 NW 23rd. I am sick of the holier-than-thou attitudes coming from every staff member of this church from the pastor to the secretary. Their vemonous HATE for all other Bible believing Christians that have left WHBC and are happily serving Christ in other churches around OKC is nothing but cultish. In closing. I thank the LORD that he has opened my eyes and heart to what loving and praising GOD is all about by placing my family in a church that is Christ centered instead of man centered. May God have mercy on them.

Welcome.

I've kind of been in your place.

Be wary of over-correcting; it is the scum at WHBC that has let you down, not "IFB churches", and certainly not God.

Watch out for bitterness (yes, I'm not afraid of that word).  Yes, the church leadership did some bad things and made poor decisions -- but there were some blessings that God gave, even in a bad situation.  I have to fight to not slide down the alley of "everything there was always terrible" attitude.

Just some notes from someone who has been down the path, for what it's worth.
Thanks Walt, Good advice there.
One thing I do know is God certainly did not let me down. HE is the one that opened my eye and ears a long time ago to the deceit and downright bitterness that the staff lives in denial of.

I will never deny the blessing of God that I received WHILE there, NOT BECAUSE I was there.

God blessed me and my family in so many ways. I owe JAV nor WHBC nothing for those blessings. I OWE GOD! The staff will argue that.
I will also, not have the attitude that '' everything was terrible there'' There are people here in OKC and literally all around the world, that are proof that not all was bad. These are the good that came out of being a member there. Many of those are serving The Lord in a mission capacity and most have disassociated themselves with WHBC. Most are laymen serving The Lord in their local churches.

And Walt thanks for the notes from the path.
 
One of the things that always baffeled and befuzzeled me was how JAV could teach all the right things on the family and the raising of our young ones and yet not practice what he preached. 

I must say though, I am thankful for the things that he did teach on the family over the years. I am thankful to the Lord that by Gods grace we never let the hypocracy of messanger detract from the truths presented.

But it is still sad that JAV's "let's wait 20 years and see where your children and my children are in life"  rants would be a total disgrace to him if we did.
 
Cicero said:
Walt said:
Cicero said:
Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a long time (years) FF reader or you might even call me a troll on the OBC site. I'm a born again Christian and former member of WHBC and you might even call me a former koolaid drinker. If I divulge too much info, the WHBC staff (and I know they have eyes on this site) will figure out who I am and try their best to ruin my entire family by sending letters of discontent and lies across the nation to various churches along with a certain blog that supposedly is seen around the world telling the same lies by the same liar. With that said, I will say, I was a member for a very long time but I will not say how long due to the above statement. I will admit, I stayed way too long but I will not explain why.
Why am I just now getting involved in the FF site you might ask?
My answer is that I am fed up with the lies and deceit spewing from 5517 NW 23rd. I am sick of the holier-than-thou attitudes coming from every staff member of this church from the pastor to the secretary. Their vemonous HATE for all other Bible believing Christians that have left WHBC and are happily serving Christ in other churches around OKC is nothing but cultish. In closing. I thank the LORD that he has opened my eyes and heart to what loving and praising GOD is all about by placing my family in a church that is Christ centered instead of man centered. May God have mercy on them.

Welcome.

I've kind of been in your place.

Be wary of over-correcting; it is the scum at WHBC that has let you down, not "IFB churches", and certainly not God.

Watch out for bitterness (yes, I'm not afraid of that word).  Yes, the church leadership did some bad things and made poor decisions -- but there were some blessings that God gave, even in a bad situation.  I have to fight to not slide down the alley of "everything there was always terrible" attitude.

Just some notes from someone who has been down the path, for what it's worth.
Thanks Walt, Good advice there.
One thing I do know is God certainly did not let me down. HE is the one that opened my eye and ears a long time ago to the deceit and downright bitterness that the staff lives in denial of.

I will never deny the blessing of God that I received WHILE there, NOT BECAUSE I was there.

God blessed me and my family in so many ways. I owe JAV nor WHBC nothing for those blessings. I OWE GOD! The staff will argue that.
I will also, not have the attitude that '' everything was terrible there'' There are people here in OKC and literally all around the world, that are proof that not all was bad. These are the good that came out of being a member there. Many of those are serving The Lord in a mission capacity and most have disassociated themselves with WHBC. Most are laymen serving The Lord in their local churches.

And Walt thanks for the notes from the path.

WHBC is proof God can use us in spite of ourselves.
 
Cicero said:
Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a long time (years) FF reader or you might even call me a troll on the OBC site. I'm a born again Christian and former member of WHBC and you might even call me a former koolaid drinker. If I divulge too much info, the WHBC staff (and I know they have eyes on this site) will figure out who I am and try their best to ruin my entire family by sending letters of discontent and lies across the nation to various churches along with a certain blog that supposedly is seen around the world telling the same lies by the same liar. With that said, I will say, I was a member for a very long time but I will not say how long due to the above statement. I will admit, I stayed way too long but I will not explain why.
Why am I just now getting involved in the FF site you might ask?
My answer is that I am fed up with the lies and deceit spewing from 5517 NW 23rd. I am sick of the holier-than-thou attitudes coming from every staff member of this church from the pastor to the secretary. Their vemonous HATE for all other Bible believing Christians that have left WHBC and are happily serving Christ in other churches around OKC is nothing but cultish. In closing. I thank the LORD that he has opened my eyes and heart to what loving and praising GOD is all about by placing my family in a church that is Christ centered instead of man centered. May God have mercy on them.

Could you elaborate on that sentence.  The part about sending the letters of discontent and lies.  We all know they have eyes on this site.
 
Sure,
It is known that if a missionary or missionary helper or even another pastor crosses JAV's path, he would write the various churches across the US that support the missionary and work to get those churches to quit supporting the said missionary or helper or pastor. The spin doctor(JAV) would write with truth and sprinkle it with lies to favor JAV and his kingdom (whbc).
My family loves and serves the Lord in ministry, they have experienced the wrath of JAV in the past. My family did nothing wrong according to God's Word but it was not according to JAV's word. I can not elaborate on the reason JAV did what he did but I do know one thing, God has blessed my family TREMENDOUSLY eversince that happened. God is still blessing them today and they are still winning lost souls to Christ. Praise The Lord for that!

JAV will also use his "Letter to Pastors" blog to strategically place jabs at various men who he says owes him. Most of us know the men who he is trying to jab and I'm sure it's hurtful. Those men owe JAV nothing whatsoever, they have paid their dues. JAV is stepping out of the circle he preaches to everyone else about. Those men are also serving the Lord or are faithful laymen.
Anyway, hope that helps.
The part about "We all know they have eyes on this site" I was speaking about the forum site and how we know various WHBC elects are to be reading these post. By the way the current member that are not the elects, they are preached at, that it is forbidden to read such a site as this forum. They wouldn't want any good water mixed in with their kool-aid.
 
Cicero said:
Sure,
It is known that if a missionary or missionary helper or even another pastor crosses JAV's path, he would write the various churches across the US that support the missionary and work to get those churches to quit supporting the said missionary or helper or pastor. The spin doctor(JAV) would write with truth and sprinkle it with lies to favor JAV and his kingdom (whbc).
My family loves and serves the Lord in ministry, they have experienced the wrath of JAV in the past. My family did nothing wrong according to God's Word but it was not according to JAV's word. I can not elaborate on the reason JAV did what he did but I do know one thing, God has blessed my family TREMENDOUSLY eversince that happened. God is still blessing them today and they are still winning lost souls to Christ. Praise The Lord for that!

JAV will also use his "Letter to Pastors" blog to strategically place jabs at various men who he says owes him. Most of us know the men who he is trying to jab and I'm sure it's hurtful. Those men owe JAV nothing whatsoever, they have paid their dues. JAV is stepping out of the circle he preaches to everyone else about. Those men are also serving the Lord or are faithful laymen.
Anyway, hope that helps.
The part about "We all know they have eyes on this site" I was speaking about the forum site and how we know various WHBC elects are to be reading these post. By the way the current member that are not the elects, they are preached at, that it is forbidden to read such a site as this forum. They wouldn't want any good water mixed in with their kool-aid.

Thanks. 

I never have figured out how it is ok for JAV to write those letters destroying men who crossed his self drawn lines and yet it is returning evil for good when you question him in any way.  I have known of missionaries out on deputation he has left stranded on the road with nothing and no help because they crossed his self drawn lines.  He contacted and wrote their supporting churches up to that point and forced/coerced them to not help them and no longer support them.  So far as to leave them stranded on the road with little kids and nowhere to go.

JAV is evil personified in my opinion and Tommy Boy has been doing the same letter writing all under the direction of daddy.

As for the eyes on this site.  Yes, I remember back in the days JAV was fighting for his livelihood because of his sexually explicit counseling sessions with young ladies alone in his office. He had specific staff men assigned to monitoring the FFF and they put many man hours into determining who the posters were.  All the while forbidding WHBC members and anyone who was under his spell from accessing the FFF.

He is such a hypocrite and so are his little boys.
 
BUMP!!  lol!!
 
Well I had not intended to post here, because sites like this can get too addicting and become a waste of time, lol, but I do check in here every few months or so, out of morbid curiosity. And if you want an example of a letter that WHBC/OBC might send to destroy someone's life, I can provide a good one.

I graduated from OBC in the spring, several years ago, and I secured a position in another church that was to begin at the end of the summer. So I stayed on OKC over the summer, living in my own apartment off campus, working my job and still helping with my OBC bus route. Since I was graduated and living on my own, I chose to grow some sort of facial hair, (a goattee or something, I don't remember). For weeks, the bus director apparently didn't notice it.

Then one Saturday, there was another pointless political event, where WHBC decided to support some candidate for local office (who would, of course, go on to lose, as usual, lol), and they had the college students cut into their soulwinning time in order to hang political flyers in people's doors. Well I only had a few hours before I had to work that day, so I skipped the doorhanging and went straight to my bus visiting. Somebody must have turned me in to the bus director, because the next day, Sunday, before I got on my bus, he pulled me aside and chewed me out for going soulwinning rather than doorhanging, and then he brought up my facial hair as well. He threatened to send a letter to the church I was about to move to, withdrawing OBC's recommendation and telling them that I had no regard for authority and would only cause problems in the church. I was understandably very upset, but i told the bus director that I would think it over and give him an answer the next week, and I then ran my bus route that morning, but skipped church and bus ride home.

Anyway, after thinking it over that week, I decided that I didn't need my facial hair badly enough to jeopardize my future career, lol, so I shaved it and all was well, the letter was not. But yes, that was definitely the final nail in the coffin as to my opinion of OBC, and it was with such a sigh of relief that I soon afterward drove away from that city, church, and college forever.
 
oldfashionedbrat said:
Well I had not intended to post here, because sites like this can get too addicting and become a waste of time, lol, but I do check in here every few months or so, out of morbid curiosity. And if you want an example of a letter that WHBC/OBC might send to destroy someone's life, I can provide a good one.

I graduated from OBC in the spring, several years ago, and I secured a position in another church that was to begin at the end of the summer. So I stayed on OKC over the summer, living in my own apartment off campus, working my job and still helping with my OBC bus route. Since I was graduated and living on my own, I chose to grow some sort of facial hair, (a goattee or something, I don't remember). For weeks, the bus director apparently didn't notice it.

Then one Saturday, there was another pointless political event, where WHBC decided to support some candidate for local office (who would, of course, go on to lose, as usual, lol), and they had the college students cut into their soulwinning time in order to hang political flyers in people's doors. Well I only had a few hours before I had to work that day, so I skipped the doorhanging and went straight to my bus visiting. Somebody must have turned me in to the bus director, because the next day, Sunday, before I got on my bus, he pulled me aside and chewed me out for going soulwinning rather than doorhanging, and then he brought up my facial hair as well. He threatened to send a letter to the church I was about to move to, withdrawing OBC's recommendation and telling them that I had no regard for authority and would only cause problems in the church. I was understandably very upset, but i told the bus director that I would think it over and give him an answer the next week, and I then ran my bus route that morning, but skipped church and bus ride home.

Anyway, after thinking it over that week, I decided that I didn't need my facial hair badly enough to jeopardize my future career, lol, so I shaved it and all was well, the letter was not. But yes, that was definitely the final nail in the coffin as to my opinion of OBC, and it was with such a sigh of relief that I soon afterward drove away from that city, church, and college forever.

Yep, skipping church, your bus route on the way home, growing facial hair and direct disobedience for not answering your bus director immediately when he took valuable time out of his schedule to "counsel" you.. 

You are a rebel for sure!!!    lol

 
oldfashionedbrat said:
Then one Saturday, there was another pointless political event, where WHBC decided to support some candidate for local office (who would, of course, go on to lose, as usual, lol), and they had the college students cut into their soulwinning time in order to hang political flyers in people's doors.

I suspect that such activity (underlined above) violates the law (having a church direct {some} of its members to campaign for one candidate).
 
Walt said:
oldfashionedbrat said:
Then one Saturday, there was another pointless political event, where WHBC decided to support some candidate for local office (who would, of course, go on to lose, as usual, lol), and they had the college students cut into their soulwinning time in order to hang political flyers in people's doors.

I suspect that such activity (underlined above) violates the law (having a church direct {some} of its members to campaign for one candidate).

Standard practice at WHBC for the entire Vineyard regime
 
I don't remember actually being encouraged to miss visitation for political campaigning until one of the church members'  brother ran for mayor of Bethany.  Then it started to happen all the time.  I do remember questioning a teacher as to why Earnest Istook, a Mormon, was addressing the church about being brothers in Christ on a Sunday morning.  God's church is much greater than any political office.  It is a shame to debase the pulpit from the truths of God's Word to a cheap political speech.  The same could be a said for our command to go and evangelize every person. 
 
oldfashionedbrat said:
Well I had not intended to post here, because sites like this can get too addicting and become a waste of time, lol, but I do check in here every few months or so, out of morbid curiosity. And if you want an example of a letter that WHBC/OBC might send to destroy someone's life, I can provide a good one.

I graduated from OBC in the spring, several years ago, and I secured a position in another church that was to begin at the end of the summer. So I stayed on OKC over the summer, living in my own apartment off campus, working my job and still helping with my OBC bus route. Since I was graduated and living on my own, I chose to grow some sort of facial hair, (a goattee or something, I don't remember). For weeks, the bus director apparently didn't notice it.

Then one Saturday, there was another pointless political event, where WHBC decided to support some candidate for local office (who would, of course, go on to lose, as usual, lol), and they had the college students cut into their soulwinning time in order to hang political flyers in people's doors. Well I only had a few hours before I had to work that day, so I skipped the doorhanging and went straight to my bus visiting. Somebody must have turned me in to the bus director, because the next day, Sunday, before I got on my bus, he pulled me aside and chewed me out for going soulwinning rather than doorhanging, and then he brought up my facial hair as well. He threatened to send a letter to the church I was about to move to, withdrawing OBC's recommendation and telling them that I had no regard for authority and would only cause problems in the church. I was understandably very upset, but i told the bus director that I would think it over and give him an answer the next week, and I then ran my bus route that morning, but skipped church and bus ride home.

Anyway, after thinking it over that week, I decided that I didn't need my facial hair badly enough to jeopardize my future career, lol, so I shaved it and all was well, the letter was not. But yes, that was definitely the final nail in the coffin as to my opinion of OBC, and it was with such a sigh of relief that I soon afterward drove away from that city, church, and college forever.

Had almost the exact same thing happen to me. I had already graduated but was still doing some of the same ministries as before I graduated. I was even married and had a kid already. I started growing a simple mustache because I liked it and never saw anything in the Bible against them. I was called in on a Sunday morning and basically told I would lose my position in all the things I was involved in if I didn't go right home and shave. I thought it was crazy but the kids I worked with were more important so it is what I did.

I worked at another church and wanted to grow a mustache there but the pastor asked me not to as it was his preference that staff members be clean shaven. I obliged because he asked and was kind and truthful about the reason and didn't give me bull that it was "biblical"
 
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