Is there a compromise on Abortion?

[cpizzle]

4 pages in and I still don't have any useful insight...?......just clich?'s and snarky nonsense...??.

Excluding rape, incest, and endangers the life of the mother, is Abortion an all or nothing issue?

Yes. A person can only be a person from conception.

I have a hard time with "personhood" at conception.  Up to 75% of "conceptions" (egg and sperm uniting) don't end up as pregnancies (fertilized egg implanting itself to the uterine wall.)  Will Heaven be made up of a majority of people who never lived 2 days past their "conception?"

 

[cpizzle]

4 pages in and I still don't have any useful insight...?......just clich?'s and snarky nonsense...??.

Excluding rape, incest, and endangers the life of the mother, is Abortion an all or nothing issue?

Yes. A person can only be a person from conception.

I have a hard time with "personhood" at conception.  Up to 75% of "conceptions" (egg and sperm uniting) don't end up as pregnancies (fertilized egg implanting itself to the uterine wall.)  Will Heaven be made up of a majority of people who never lived 2 days past their "conception?"

Whoops, my information was wrong.  25% of Fertiziled eggs dont' result in "pregancy" and 30 percent of pregancies end in misscariages (usually within the first few days after implantation.)  This still means that 75% of conceptions don't end up with a "live birth."  Based on this, I have a hard time believing that a "child is a child" at the moment of conception or even implantation and an even harder time accepting that it is a "living soul."  However, there is no other logical time to claim "personhood."  The Bible doesn't tell us when in the pregancy cycle "protected life" begins other than a mention of slaying a women with child.  This assumes the pregancy is detectable, ie...the quickening/missed cycle/mesurable growth.

 

[HereIStand]

4 pages in and I still don't have any useful insight...?......just clich?'s and snarky nonsense...??.

Excluding rape, incest, and endangers the life of the mother, is Abortion an all or nothing issue?

Yes. A person can only be a person from conception.

I have a hard time with "personhood" at conception.  Up to 75% of "conceptions" (egg and sperm uniting) don't end up as pregnancies (fertilized egg implanting itself to the uterine wall.)  Will Heaven be made up of a majority of people who never lived 2 days past their "conception?"

Whoops, my information was wrong.  25% of Fertiziled eggs dont' result in "pregancy" and 30 percent of pregancies end in misscariages (usually within the first few days after implantation.)  This still means that 75% of conceptions don't end up with a "live birth."  Based on this, I have a hard time believing that a "child is a child" at the moment of conception or even implantation and an even harder time accepting that it is a "living soul."  However, there is no other logical time to claim "personhood."  The Bible doesn't tell us when in the pregancy cycle "protected life" begins other than a mention of slaying a women with child.  This assumes the pregancy is detectable, ie...the quickening/missed cycle/mesurable growth.

I used to believe something like that. In that, I thought that at conception a person is merely a potential human being, not an actual one. A non-Christian fella (with a Darwin fish on the back of his car) pointed out to me that from conception, a person doesn't have the potential to be anything else. I have the potential to become a shoe salesman, but I can't become a non-person.

 

[cpizzle]

I agree with you:

Devils Advocate - "Does the woman's (full person) right to control her own body supersede a "potential person's" "right to life?"

What I am trying to do is develop the proper "argument/theology" that goes beyond rhetoric and hysteria.  It must in agreement with the Bible, science, and natural rights. 

 

[Ransom]

Is there a compromise to be found on Abortion or are the only options victory and defeat?

How can there be a compromise? One side says it is morally permissible to kill unborn human beings; the other says it is not. There is no middle ground. For the pro-life side to "compromise" would simply be to become pro-abortion.

I suppose that exceptions for saving the life of the mother, rape, or incest might count as "compromises." But the first is a medical procedure intended to save one life instead of losing two. And I don't accept the necessity of rape or incest exceptions. You don't correct one sin by committing another one, i.e. killing an unborn person who has done nothing wrong.

 

[Ransom]

Does life begin  1)conception (egg and sperm uniting), at 2)implantation (when the fertilized egg attaches to the Uteran Wall and Pregnancy begins), 3)when there is a heartbeat, 4)when the baby develops discernable brainwaves, or 5)at birth?

Life begins at conception. The conceptus meets the accepted definition of life (an organism that has organization, growth, metabolism, and adapts to its environment, etc.). By the time of implantation, it consists of over 100 cells, which have begun to differentiate.

]When (out of those 5) does "personhood" begin which gives the child the right to life?

What process confers "personhood" upon a human being? I've never encountered a human being who was not also a human person, leading me to believe it's a distinction without a difference.

 

[Ransom]

If a law can be passed that eleminates 95% of abortions, pro-life religious republicans will vote "no" because it doesn't go far enough and gives political cover to their democratic rivals.

On the contrary, I think that if a law could be passed that would eliminate 95% of abortions, the vast majority of pro-life politicians would vote for it in a New York minute. Then they'd work on finding a way to abolish the last 5%.

 

[prophet]

As usual, you are an apples to oranges contraster.

Adoption is a choice, rape isn't, you're a boob.

And what, exactly, do you know of how our daughter was conceived?

And I would much rather be a boob for Christ then a hate filled baby killer.

Who cares how your daughter was conceived?
You adopted her, and that was a choice...one which was shared apparently by her birth mother.


I highly doubt that you would call a 16 year old girl, who was raped by her uncle, a "hate-filled baby killer" to her face, but you'd call me that for saying that I wouldn't condemn her for getting rid of the bastard seed of her attacker.

I'd try to explain it to you further, but you've proven incapable of even understanding the difference between force and voluntary action.

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[prophet]

If your wife was raped, and impregnated by the rapist, would you raise his bastard?

No. We would continue the pregnancy and consider adoption (if necessary).

Adding "murder" to a rape victim's conscience is not a good position. The procedure of abortion further hurts a woman, physically as well.

Well, there's the line.

You probably represent a lot of people's thinking.

The OP was about whether there was a compromise available or not.

I postulated one situation where I'd allow a compromise.
The other would be a choice between Momma and Baby, in the case of life threatening pregnancy.
I had a friend who's Dad chose the baby, and his wife died giving birth.
That was tough on the older kids.
That's a call I wouldn't want to make!

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[Thomas Cassidy]

Who cares how your daughter was conceived?

Had your recommendation been followed she would be dead. It is hard to adopt a dead baby.

 

[prophet]

Who cares how your daughter was conceived?

Had your recommendation been followed she would be dead. It is hard to adopt a dead baby.

If you have a point, make it.
This emotional argument is tiring.

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[Ransom]

Who cares how your daughter was conceived?

Well, when someone like you comes along and advocates for the right to murder an unborn human being just for being conceived in rape, I'd say how she was conceived is rather important. Wouldn't you?

 

[subllibrm]

Friends of mine. Newlyweds. Moved to Texas during the 1980-81 recession. He worked the oil fields. She was raped while he was out of town. Not long after she found out she was pregnant. What to do?

Abortion was offered/recommended by several Christians who pointed out the rapist being black would give them a mixed race child. His response was that they wouldn't know until birth. If they chose abortion, it was quite possible that they would be aborting his child and not that of the rapist. They decided to have the child and raise it as their own regardless of whether or not he was the actual father or not.

My question is if it is okay to abort the child due to the possibility of the rapist being the father, wouldn't it also be acceptable to kill it upon birth once the truth is known?

 

[sword]

Psalms 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh
and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

So... your point, now... is to take the infants and kill all of them? I thought you believed they got their soul when they took their first breath.
Only on the FFF will you find a fundamentalist advocating infanticide.

Psalms 137:9 is not a advocating or approving killing babies.

Psalms 137:9 is a song or prayer for revenge. The Jew were expressing in song, that after seeing their own children killed and their wives raped and killed, they desired to wipe out every last one of their enemies.

God did command Joshua to utterly destroy all the Canaanites (presumably even the children) when they entered the land.

 

[sword]

Friends of mine. Newlyweds. Moved to Texas during the 1980-81 recession. He worked the oil fields. She was raped while he was out of town. Not long after she found out she was pregnant. What to do?

Abortion was offered/recommended by several Christians who pointed out the rapist being black would give them a mixed race child. His response was that they wouldn't know until birth. If they chose abortion, it was quite possible that they would be aborting his child and not that of the rapist. They decided to have the child and raise it as their own regardless of whether or not he was the actual father or not.

My question is if it is okay to abort the child due to the possibility of the rapist being the father, wouldn't it also be acceptable to kill it upon birth once the truth is known?

Why would the color of the rapist or the baby matter.

If you carried the child for 9 months would you not love him or her with all your heart.

The child did nothing wrong and clearly does not deserve to die.

I say execute the rapist and allow the child to live.

 

[prophet]

Who cares how your daughter was conceived?

Well, when someone like you comes along and advocates for the right to murder an unborn human being just for being conceived in rape, I'd say how she was conceived is rather important. Wouldn't you?

Saying "I wouldn't condemn a rape victim"

Does not = advocating abortion.



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[prophet]

Psalms 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh
and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

So... your point, now... is to take the infants and kill all of them? I thought you believed they got their soul when they took their first breath.

Only on the FFF will you find a fundamentalist advocating infanticide.

You seem intent on forcing me to advocate Ruckmanism, which I despise.

It's almost like you need me to be, to keep your worldview neatly packaged...

I advocated nothing here.

I pointed out that I wouldn't condemn certain behavior, due to the circumstances.

I'm not a woman, I couldn't possibly know what it's like to face this situation, and I can't condemn someone who does.

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[brianb]

The abortion debate is the most polarizing disagreement in modern America.  You either have to be 100% for it or 100% against it....there is no middle ground.

I have tried to develop a working compromise, but I always fall intellectually (and morally) short.

Is there a compromise to be found on Abortion or are the only options victory and defeat?

Should abortion be allowed in cases or rape or incest? I like to think of it this way. If people in the Bible times all aborted babies of incest we wouldn't have Ruth who was a Moabite (Lot and his daughter).  Yes I know that was intentional incest. The point is there shouldn't be exceptions.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Who cares how your daughter was conceived?

Well, when someone like you comes along and advocates for the right to murder an unborn human being just for being conceived in rape, I'd say how she was conceived is rather important. Wouldn't you?

You must remember that prophet trained Steve Anderson, so you never know how or what he might be thinking...

 

[Ransom]

Saying "I wouldn't condemn a rape victim"

Does not = advocating abortion.

Saying a woman "has the right to destroy her rapist's seed" does, however.

Perhaps you forgot that we could actually read what you were saying.