It's everyone else's fault...

JustABigKid

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So at yet another attempt to blind the eyes of the members to the church there was a special insert in the church bulletin this week. I couldn't figure out how to insert the picture so I retyped it.

This is a letter by a pastor in Humble, TX. The letter makes sense if you are truly talking about people who are church jumpers but does not apply to this situation. However, Tom has tried to apply it to this situation and again blind the eyes of the members.


Letter Starts here

The title of the page says, "CHURCH CRITICS"

    "As any pastor can tell you, Christians can be some of the most patient, thoughtful, and kind people in the world. Thank God for them! But they also know that some church members can be some of the most critical people on earth. Pastors, however, aren't the only ones aware of this. Ask any ministry leader what the most difficult part of their job is and they will tell you it is dealing with faultfinders, critics. They know that regardless of how hard they try it will never be good enough for some folks. That's why it takes a thick skin to stay in the ministry over the long haul - They can't take the heat so they get out of the kitchen. And if they throw in the towel, guess who speaks most harshly of them? Yeah you guessed it -- the very ones who criticized and discouraged them to start with! However, there is someone who, for all practical purposes, usually quits before they do, and that's the critic himself.

  I can tell you from nearly half a century of ministry that most critics aren't faithful in attendance or ministry. They tend to bounce around like a rubber ball. About the only way to keep them going is to cave in to every complaint, succumb to every suggestion they make, and let them rule the roost. In other words, if they aren't running the show they bail out. If they don't get their way they take their bag of marbles, like a child, and head for home. That's exactly where some members are right now. They got upset about something so they dropped out. And eventually the reason for their rebellion will filter back to the pastor -- they will see to that! So they sit at home pouting when they ought to be serving God. Instead of getting their heart right and getting back into church, they try to justify their rebellion by pointing out the faults of others -- as though they are better than them. They criticize others but fail to take any responsibility for their won actions. They quit on God because of what somebody else has done, or didn't do. Does that make any sense?
  Here's something else I've learned - most of these people are sitting on the edge of their seat waiting for the pastor to contact them and ask, "What's wrong?" Other pastors can do as they please, but I refuse to play that game. I am not going to waste my time being  a babysitter for childish critics who see everyone's faults but their own. If that describe you, you might as well look somewhere else, because I'm not coming. As a general rule, no one loves the church more than the pastor, yet no one is more aware of its faults and still he continues on. My point is this -- seeing faults in a church doesn't give you the right to leave it. Awareness of its faults should make you more helpful, not more of a hindrance. Any pastor worth his salt doesn't cut and run just because the church is less than perfect. Neither should you! Why should the failure of someone else cause you to fail?
  One of the saddest things about these people is that, based on my experience, they seldom change. Although they could recover, the very nature of their problem makes it difficult. Their pride makes them critical and it also keeps them from admitting they are wrong. They have a reputation for being hard to please and they live up to it -- year after year! I suspect some have died because of it. So, if you are a church critic I hope you will be the exception of the rule and ask God to deliver you from the sin of fault-finding. Rather than mentioning every flaw you see help us mend them. But you will have to start with your own before you can be of help to others. May God help me be a better example for you. Together we can make a difference, but we have to be different. Think about it!

David Stone
Lakeway Baptist Church
Humble, TX 77346

End of Letter

So much to say about this but would love to hear everyone's thoughts I am sure there are many.
 
Here is my take of what he said:

  • The pastor never sins
  • Pride is never a problem of a preacher
  • When the preacher does sin the members should turn a blind eye because everybody sins
  • Church members should only look at the beam in their own eyes
  • Church members who leave his church never go to church
  • Church members die because they left his church
  • If you do not agree with the preacher you are a church critic
Could go on but a simple reading of the letter says it all for itself.

What he is really saying is that he is covering for the other IFB pastor who has messed up that way when he messes up they will cover for him.

Becoming all to common in that world.  Classic manipulation pure and simple.
 
JustABigKid said:
...My point is this -- seeing faults in a church doesn't give you the right to leave it...

My favorite sentence of the entire article. Here are some of the faults that have been documented about Windsor over the years:
1.    Alleged inappropriate conduct by the current pastor towards single females
2.    The misuse of funds and lack of financial accountability
3.    Lack of spiritual food being given from the pulpit. Many times, spiritual food being replaced with political rhetoric
4.    Suspicion around the events causing Tom to leave the mission field…and then be “chosen” as pastor
5.    Sexual misconduct by Tom’s brother that was swept under the rug
6.    JAV showing the entire church a video he so eloquently labeled “the throat cutters” detailing cruel and violent acts that should never be shown in church
7.    JAV’s inappropriate counseling of women in his office…alone behind a closed door
8.    The fact that JAV would use vulgar language from behind the pulpit

Obviously those are just a few faults, I’m sure there are many more.

Clearly these are not valid reasons to leave a church…  :eek:
 
“They tend to bounce around like a rubber ball.”

A lot of the members I know have been there 15, 20, 30 years that is hardly bouncing around in my opinion.

“So they sit at home pouting when they ought to be serving God. Instead of getting their heart right and getting back into church,…”

I don’t know any former WHBC members that are sitting around pouting, it seems like all the pouting is coming from ole JAV in his letters to Pastor’s. Most of them never left ‘church’ they just left WH and became members of a church.

“…seeing faults in a church doesn't give you the right to leave it.”

I can agree with this because all churches have faults, however when those faults go contrary to God’s word and a Pastor supports, encourages, or denies those faults it is time to seek a church with a Pastor that teaches the Bible and is not living contrary to God’s word. A Pastor that is not full of pride and refuses to admit what he did was wrong and one that supports his brother living in adultery.

I also agree if this is directed to those that are church jumpers, people who go to church to find a reason to leave and never stay in the same church for more than a year or two this letter would be appropriate.  In regards to WH it is a letter taken out of context to convince the members they are the good sheep and re-enforce the evilness of the members that left.
 
TruthInLove said:
JustABigKid said:
...My point is this -- seeing faults in a church doesn't give you the right to leave it...

My favorite sentence of the entire article. Here are some of the faults that have been documented about Windsor over the years:
1.    Alleged inappropriate conduct by the current pastor towards single females
2.    The misuse of funds and lack of financial accountability
3.    Lack of spiritual food being given from the pulpit. Many times, spiritual food being replaced with political rhetoric
4.    Suspicion around the events causing Tom to leave the mission field…and then be “chosen” as pastor
5.    Sexual misconduct by Tom’s brother that was swept under the rug
6.    JAV showing the entire church a video he so eloquently labeled “the throat cutters” detailing cruel and violent acts that should never be shown in church
7.    JAV’s inappropriate counseling of women in his office…alone behind a closed door
8.    The fact that JAV would use vulgar language from behind the pulpit

Obviously those are just a few faults, I’m sure there are many more.

Clearly these are not valid reasons to leave a church…  :eek:

Well put list.  But you are right, not a reason to find another church. ;)

Oh the efforts these IFB pastors put forth to cover for one another

 
It really makes me wonder what results they expect from this letter.  I am sure there are some members who are still there but in the valley of decision who see these "church hoppers" in a new church being feed, happy, and serving God.  They must really have to wonder at what they are reading.
 
Better Not Bitter said:
It really makes me wonder what results they expect from this letter.  I am sure there are some members who are still there but in the valley of decision who see these "church hoppers" in a new church being feed, happy, and serving God.  They must really have to wonder at what they are reading.

From having been there you know the control and manipulation they have over the members.  They know exactly how to get people inline. I have watched them myself and even, of course, been subject to it. Some will leave and they know that but many will succumb to the mind games and stay despite what they are seeing with their own eyes.

Let's face it, this control and manipulation has been going on for years.  It is nothing new.
 
Seems to me like an "out of context" letter. Are there those who leave for no reason or for unscriptural reasons? Sure. Could a pastor be at fault so you have to leave? Yup. And the two are not the same at all.
 
I cannot speak for WHBC but all the IFB churches I have been in The pastor stomps and screams about all those churches across town that don't measure up.  They call them wicked compromisers and liberal. They are very critical of other churches.
 
Tanner said:
I cannot speak for WHBC but all the IFB churches I have been in The pastor stomps and screams about all those churches across town that don't measure up.  They call them wicked compromisers and liberal. They are very critical of other churches.

WHBC is just like that also, by the way.

I think pastor do this because they want to be the number one church in their town!!  Isn't that the American way.  Number one in sports, number one TV show or movie or song or whatever.  To do that Texas has to claim they are better than OU and OU has to say they are better than Texas. And Baylor wants recognition so it puts both of them down because they think they are the real deal.  And the schools keep their fans in a frenzy and hating the other schools and it gets nasty.

Welcome to the American way in all things from sports to life as a whole.  And unfortunately our Lords churches have become the same American way.  Led by the CEO/head coach pastors who have lost sight of what Christ wants in His church and from His people. And lets face it every OU fan hates the guy who deserts and go to the dark side and becomes a Texas fan. (put in any teams you want there)  So these misguided pastor/dictators manipulate the fan base church members anyway they can to keep them on their side and keep the money coming in.

kind of tragic isn't it?
 
It is sad.  I was a little shocked in church yesterday to hear our pastor say there are a good two dozen Bible believing churches in our town.  I wonder how many of them would say the same thing!  :)
 
But the question still remains, "Why would WHBC (Tom) even put that letter in the Sunday morning church bulletin?"  Was it related to the morning message.  No he "preached" on the Tribulation. 

It can only be for one reason, minipulation/controll of the good people of WHBC.
 
Just me said:
But the question still remains, "Why would WHBC (Tom) even put that letter in the Sunday morning church bulletin?"  Was it related to the morning message.  No he "preached" on the Tribulation. 

It can only be for one reason, minipulation/controll of the good people of WHBC.
There is one more reason it was used, it's to take the attention away from Tom's many attempts at having affairs, (the only reason for a man to be texting single women without his wife knowing at wee hours of the night, or anytime for that matter)
As for the reason 'Just Me' stated, Yes, complete control and manipulation over the remaining members is a fact and a  downright cultic ploy to keep it's members. They don't care if it drives wedges between family members or close friends. more on this at another time.
 
Cicero said:
There is one more reason it was used, it's to take the attention away from Tom's many attempts at having affairs, (the only reason for a man to be texting single women without his wife knowing at wee hours of the night, or anytime for that matter)As for the reason 'Just Me' stated, Yes, complete control and manipulation over the remaining members is a fact and a  downright cultic ploy to keep it's members. They don't care if it drives wedges between family members or close friends. more on this at another time.


Nailed it!!!!
 
I thought that nothing exhibited pride or self-centeredness than the statement:  ...waiting for the pastor to contact them and ask, "What's wrong?" Other pastors can do as they please, but I refuse to play that game. I am not going to waste my time being  a babysitter for childish critics who see everyone's faults but their own. If that describe you, you might as well look somewhere else, because I'm not coming.

Really?  You'd never call a member who stopped coming to say that you missed them, or ask them if perhaps you had offended them?  Oh, I forgot -- you are perfect, and could not possibly have offended anyone.  It isn't a game -- it's humility:  Pastor, if you believe what you preach that ALL men are sinners, that includes YOU and you could have done something that offended people.  Perhaps in pointing a finger around the congregation, you should look at yourself.
 
Hirelings.  These men don't care about the sheep, they don't even like the sheep.  They just love the benefits of having a bunch of them.  "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but ensamples to the flock."  If they can read the verses in the Bible about being a pastor without being a little convicted...  Were they ever ensamples of how to live a Christian life?  Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentle, kind???  If you have none of them, where does that leave you?  Not trying to be harsh, but the Bible is pretty plain.
 
SixGreatKids said:
Hirelings.  These men don't care about the sheep, they don't even like the sheep.  They just love the benefits of having a bunch of them.  "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but ensamples to the flock."  If they can read the verses in the Bible about being a pastor without being a little convicted...  Were they ever ensamples of how to live a Christian life?  Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentle, kind???  If you have none of them, where does that leave you?  Not trying to be harsh, but the Bible is pretty plain.

Did you notice all of the plurals in this passage?

"You"
"lords"
"ensamples"

Flock is singular collective.

Always a plurality of leadership, Never one head.

1Ti 5:17-21
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.


21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

In case you care as to where we went wrong first.


 
SixGreatKids said:
Hirelings.  These men don't care about the sheep, they don't even like the sheep.  They just love the benefits of having a bunch of them.  "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but ensamples to the flock."  If they can read the verses in the Bible about being a pastor without being a little convicted...  Were they ever ensamples of how to live a Christian life?  Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentle, kind???  If you have none of them, where does that leave you?  Not trying to be harsh, but the Bible is pretty plain.
Sixgreatkids, Please allow me to add just two words to your first sentence.

These men AND WOMEN don't care about the sheep.
I say that because, one person in particular keeps coming to the forefront in many a conversation (NO NOT GOSSIP) with several different individuals concerning the bitterness, finger pointing and un-godly hate coming from WHBC towards those that have chosen to follow the will of God  in their lives and leave for another Church. This one person just happens to be a woman that still works for WHBC. It's a fact that she has said that every person that left WHBC is dead to her. Talk about a sick twisted way of taking scripture way out of context. Islam, Jehovah's Wittness, and serious cultic life uses this practice. But a born again believer in Christ, talking about those that are desiring to be in God's will? How disturbing? How un-Godly, hateful and full of bitterness, the exact opposite of how the bible teaches us to treat one another (God's Heritage). Talk about spreading discord among the brethren. JAV, you should use her example in one of your letters about sowing discord.  Is she just following orders? Many have even said she is giving the orders around there (WHBC) lol. Without mentioning names, I would bet almost everyone that reads this knows exactly who I'm talking about because you've had to go through her for one reason or another.
I'd place another bet that she is the one that searched and found the letter then suggested it go in the church bulletin for all the followers to drink there of. Hopefully, the GOOD people that still attend there will see through the tactic and refuse to drink then actually leave. I know a few more that are on the brink.

"Feed the flock of God which is among you" Another popular topic among those that found another church is that they are NOW actually being feed from God's Word. Proper filling food that can nurture you from day to day. Never happened under Tom. Members actually got excited when a guest speaker (none staff member) would come to preach, which was't often enough. We were starving to death for someone to feed us.

 
What man… having a hundred sheep, if he loses one… does not leave the ninety-nine… and go after the one which is lost?

This is an example Christ gave.

A member left the faith, circle the wagons and ensure we protect ourselves from their wicked ways and treat them as dead people.

This is an example WHBC gives.

Romans 1:22-23

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

 
Jeremiah 23

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.

2 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.
 
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