"Kinds" in Genesis 1. Does it correlate exactly with "species" in Darwinism?

[Mathew Ward]

Why must we assume that the possibility of eternal life for Adam applied to anything else in creation? Actually,  the assumption doesn't make sense even based on a narrative reading of the Genesis accounts.

So were there thorns and thistles before Adam's sin or did his sin also have an effect upon plants and animals?

To think there was death before sin doesn't seem to jive with what the Bible teaches.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]I always suspected (and still do) that there were civilizations pre-Adam.  Adam was the first man in the sense of the first man with God's breath of life, whatever that is (the soul?).  The civilizations outside of Eden would have been populated by men (and women) with a different make-up or nature. 

Why?  Because Cain said, "I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me."  Who are these "anyones" he's talking about?  You might say Adam/Eve did a lot of begatting, but that doesn't jibe with the tone of what Cain is saying.  If all these other people were part of the family, they'd recognize Cain.  No, I suspect there were a lot of people on earth before Eden, Adam and Eve, and those people were not very nice, especially to outsiders.

And thus how I reconcile both evolutionary theism and the Adamic nature of man.
[/quote]

You don't reconcile anything. Obviously this a new revelation to you. You might want to give it some more consideration.

 

[rsc2a]

Why must we assume that the possibility of eternal life for Adam applied to anything else in creation? Actually,  the assumption doesn't make sense even based on a narrative reading of the Genesis accounts.

So were there thorns and thistles before Adam's sin...

Sure. I see no reason to assume otherwise.

...or did his sin also have an effect upon plants and animals?

His sin had an effect upon all of creation, specifically upon his vocation in the verses you are alluding to. No longer was work (i.e. vocation) going to a joyous pleasure performed as worship towards the Creator God; it was going to be difficult and grueling. It's a lot harder to be God's steward-ambassadors via the image-bearing we possess when that image becomes distorted by us becoming less fully human than we were as a result of sin.

To think there was death before sin doesn't seem to jive with what the Bible teaches.

Can you show me where the Bible teaches this?

 

[Mathew Ward]

Out of curiosity, why do you believe in the Gap Theory?

To me it explains the civilization on the earth during fall of Satan in Ezekiel 28. That chapter talks about the fall of a cherub from heaven because of his pride, violence (against whom?), profaned sanctuaries (who worshiped?), unrighteousness in trade (who was victimized?), etc. The result was he as exposed before kings (what kingdoms?) and was appalled by the peoples (what peoples?).

And with the earth covered in darkness in Genesis 1:2 (sign of God's judgment - hell, plague of Egypt, crucifixion), I wonder how the earth became that way. Most logical explanation to me is that there was a previous world on this planet which was ruled by the Cherub we now know as Satan and God destroyed his habitat and kingdom of that time.

Again, it is a theory but it seems most plausible to me, specifically with scientific evidences of an older earth that was inhabited by some creatures.

Ezekiel 28 would indicate that Satan was in the Garden of Eden, not some time before it.

If that were the case, then mankind had already reproduced before Adam's fall. How can their be kingdoms and religious sanctuaries if there were only 2 people roaming the entire earth?

Ezekiel 28:13-15  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Still doesn't answer the question about civilizations in Eden. Besides, isn't it possible God could have created a second Eden? Satan's Eden vs. Adam's Eden. Or perhaps Ezekiel was really talking about Eden, NC. Kidding aside, perhaps it was a symbolic name, perhaps it was a literal name. Ezekiel 31 calls Lebanon Eden centuries after Adam's removal so I believe that like chapter 31, Ezekiel is being symbolic in his use of the name.

Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.

6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.

7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.

8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him...

I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God.

Who made up these civilizations in Eden? What verses are you using for support?

 

[christundivided]

Still doesn't answer the question about civilizations in Eden. Besides, isn't it possible God could have created a second Eden? Satan's Eden vs. Adam's Eden. Or perhaps Ezekiel was really talking about Eden, NC. Kidding aside, perhaps it was a symbolic name, perhaps it was a literal name. Ezekiel 31 calls Lebanon Eden centuries after Adam's removal so I believe that like chapter 31, Ezekiel is being symbolic in his use of the name.

I always suspected (and still do) that there were civilizations pre-Adam.  Adam was the first man in the sense of the first man with God's breath of life, whatever that is (the soul?).  The civilizations outside of Eden would have been populated by men (and women) with a different make-up or nature. 

Why?  Because Cain said, "I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me."  Who are these "anyones" he's talking about?  You might say Adam/Eve did a lot of begatting, but that doesn't jibe with the tone of what Cain is saying.  If all these other people were part of the family, they'd recognize Cain.  No, I suspect there were a lot of people on earth before Eden, Adam and Eve, and those people were not very nice, especially to outsiders.

Of course what you say doesn't "jibe" with the narrative that continues throughout the Scriptures. There is not talk of humanoid humanity pre Adam. In fact, the Scriptures clearly say.... THE FIRST MAN ADAM.

Adam was literally the FIRST MAN. Nothing more. Nothing less. I don't think you've really thought this through. Just WHO would want to kill Cain and why? Might it just be the brother's and sister's of Abel?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]I always suspected (and still do) that there were civilizations pre-Adam.  Adam was the first man in the sense of the first man with God's breath of life, whatever that is (the soul?).  The civilizations outside of Eden would have been populated by men (and women) with a different make-up or nature. 

Why?  Because Cain said, "I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me."  Who are these "anyones" he's talking about?  You might say Adam/Eve did a lot of begatting, but that doesn't jibe with the tone of what Cain is saying.  If all these other people were part of the family, they'd recognize Cain.  No, I suspect there were a lot of people on earth before Eden, Adam and Eve, and those people were not very nice, especially to outsiders.

And thus how I reconcile both evolutionary theism and the Adamic nature of man.

You don't reconcile anything. Obviously this a new revelation to you. You might want to give it some more consideration.
[/quote]

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/lions-were-designed-to-kill/msg58894/#msg58894

:

 

[christundivided]

Out of curiosity, why do you believe in the Gap Theory?

To me it explains the civilization on the earth during fall of Satan in Ezekiel 28. That chapter talks about the fall of a cherub from heaven because of his pride, violence (against whom?), profaned sanctuaries (who worshiped?), unrighteousness in trade (who was victimized?), etc. The result was he as exposed before kings (what kingdoms?) and was appalled by the peoples (what peoples?).

And with the earth covered in darkness in Genesis 1:2 (sign of God's judgment - hell, plague of Egypt, crucifixion), I wonder how the earth became that way. Most logical explanation to me is that there was a previous world on this planet which was ruled by the Cherub we now know as Satan and God destroyed his habitat and kingdom of that time.

Again, it is a theory but it seems most plausible to me, specifically with scientific evidences of an older earth that was inhabited by some creatures.

Ezekiel 28 would indicate that Satan was in the Garden of Eden, not some time before it.

If that were the case, then mankind had already reproduced before Adam's fall. How can their be kingdoms and religious sanctuaries if there were only 2 people roaming the entire earth?

Ezekiel 28:13-15  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Still doesn't answer the question about civilizations in Eden. Besides, isn't it possible God could have created a second Eden? Satan's Eden vs. Adam's Eden. Or perhaps Ezekiel was really talking about Eden, NC. Kidding aside, perhaps it was a symbolic name, perhaps it was a literal name. Ezekiel 31 calls Lebanon Eden centuries after Adam's removal so I believe that like chapter 31, Ezekiel is being symbolic in his use of the name.

Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.

6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.

7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.

8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him...

I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God.

Who made up these civilizations in Eden? What verses are you using for support?

There are none. That won't stop him from promoting his imagination above the Scriptures.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]I always suspected (and still do) that there were civilizations pre-Adam.  Adam was the first man in the sense of the first man with God's breath of life, whatever that is (the soul?).  The civilizations outside of Eden would have been populated by men (and women) with a different make-up or nature. 

Why?  Because Cain said, "I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me."  Who are these "anyones" he's talking about?  You might say Adam/Eve did a lot of begatting, but that doesn't jibe with the tone of what Cain is saying.  If all these other people were part of the family, they'd recognize Cain.  No, I suspect there were a lot of people on earth before Eden, Adam and Eve, and those people were not very nice, especially to outsiders.

And thus how I reconcile both evolutionary theism and the Adamic nature of man.

You don't reconcile anything. Obviously this a new revelation to you. You might want to give it some more consideration.

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/lions-were-designed-to-kill/msg58894/#msg58894

:
[/quote]

So... you are paying attention to me.... I would like to remind you the thread you're referencing is very recent. Maybe you can point to something WAY BACK that proves you haven't recently googled your way to a revelation.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Why must we assume that the possibility of eternal life for Adam applied to anything else in creation? Actually,  the assumption doesn't make sense even based on a narrative reading of the Genesis accounts.

So were there thorns and thistles before Adam's sin...

Sure. I see no reason to assume otherwise.

...or did his sin also have an effect upon plants and animals?

His sin had an effect upon all of creation, specifically upon his vocation in the verses you are alluding to. No longer was work (i.e. vocation) going to a joyous pleasure performed as worship towards the Creator God; it was going to be difficult and grueling. It's a lot harder to be God's steward-ambassadors via the image-bearing we possess when that image becomes distorted by us becoming less fully human than we were as a result of sin.

To think there was death before sin doesn't seem to jive with what the Bible teaches.

Can you show me where the Bible teaches this?

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


As far as God creating this pre-Adamic race and worlds how does that coincide with Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made

 

[rsc2a]

Why must we assume that the possibility of eternal life for Adam applied to anything else in creation? Actually,  the assumption doesn't make sense even based on a narrative reading of the Genesis accounts.

So were there thorns and thistles before Adam's sin...

Sure. I see no reason to assume otherwise.

...or did his sin also have an effect upon plants and animals?

His sin had an effect upon all of creation, specifically upon his vocation in the verses you are alluding to. No longer was work (i.e. vocation) going to a joyous pleasure performed as worship towards the Creator God; it was going to be difficult and grueling. It's a lot harder to be God's steward-ambassadors via the image-bearing we possess when that image becomes distorted by us becoming less fully human than we were as a result of sin.

To think there was death before sin doesn't seem to jive with what the Bible teaches.

Can you show me where the Bible teaches this?

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


As far as God creating this pre-Adamic race and worlds how does that coincide with Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made

So the Bible teaches that mankind has to deal with death as a result of the sin of Adam as one of the verses explicitly states. I would readily agree with that. The question is where does the Bible teach that other parts of creation would not also die?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


As far as God creating this pre-Adamic race and worlds how does that coincide with Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made

First of all, Eden was an isolated garden until the curse.  Adam and Eve were tossed out of that garden, and cherubim were placed at the entry to prevent them from getting back in  - "therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life."

Second, maybe death doesn't mean what you think it means. "...for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”  But they didn't die that day.  So when death entered the world, it wasn't referring to physical death.  For all we know, Adam and Eve may have eventually died a physical death even if they never ate the fruit.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Why must we assume that the possibility of eternal life for Adam applied to anything else in creation? Actually,  the assumption doesn't make sense even based on a narrative reading of the Genesis accounts.

So were there thorns and thistles before Adam's sin...

Sure. I see no reason to assume otherwise.

...or did his sin also have an effect upon plants and animals?

His sin had an effect upon all of creation, specifically upon his vocation in the verses you are alluding to. No longer was work (i.e. vocation) going to a joyous pleasure performed as worship towards the Creator God; it was going to be difficult and grueling. It's a lot harder to be God's steward-ambassadors via the image-bearing we possess when that image becomes distorted by us becoming less fully human than we were as a result of sin.

To think there was death before sin doesn't seem to jive with what the Bible teaches.

Can you show me where the Bible teaches this?

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


As far as God creating this pre-Adamic race and worlds how does that coincide with Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made

So the Bible teaches that mankind has to deal with death as a result of the sin of Adam as one of the verses explicitly states. I would readily agree with that. The question is where does the Bible teach that other parts of creation would not also die?

I don't find death before sin in a literal 6 day creation, with God resting on the 7th day. I find that the results of Adam's sin also applied to the plants and animals, as clearly taught in the Bible. So as a result of Adam's sin we have death, before Adam's sin there was not death.

If I held to a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and a pre-Adamic race that died before God created Adam. My question would be how did they die if death was the result of Adam's sin? Secondly, if God rested on the 7th day and he started creating day 1 to 6 (but there are millions of years between 2 verses) did God lie when He said He rested on the 7th day?

 

[Mathew Ward]

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


As far as God creating this pre-Adamic race and worlds how does that coincide with Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made

First of all, Eden was an isolated garden until the curse.  Adam and Eve were tossed out of that garden, and cherubim were placed at the entry to prevent them from getting back in  - "therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life."

Second, maybe death doesn't mean what you think it means. "...for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”  But they didn't die that day.  So when death entered the world, it wasn't referring to physical death.  For all we know, Adam and Eve may have eventually died a physical death even if they never ate the fruit.

Since death doesn't mean physical death, then we must conclude that people do not physically die?

People physically die as a result of sin as noted in verses earlier.

If Adam and Eve never sinned why would they have died?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]So the Bible teaches that mankind has to deal with death as a result of the sin of Adam as one of the verses explicitly states. I would readily agree with that. The question is where does the Bible teach that other parts of creation would not also die?

I don't find death before sin in a literal 6 day creation, with God resting on the 7th day. [/quote]

Explicit eisegesis then...

[quote author=Mathew Ward]I find that the results of Adam's sin also applied to the plants and animals, as clearly taught in the Bible. So as a result of Adam's sin we have death, before Adam's sin there was not death.[/quote]

If it is clearly taught in the Bible, then show me where it says that.

[quote author=Mathew Ward]If I held to a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and a pre-Adamic race that died before God created Adam. My question would be how did they die if death was the result of Adam's sin? Secondly, if God rested on the 7th day and he started creating day 1 to 6 (but there are millions of years between 2 verses) did God lie when He said He rested on the 7th day?[/quote]

- Holding to a gap theory is irrelevant to this discussion.
- I don't believe a pre-Adamic race would have died prior to Adam. In fact, based on the words of Cain, I would state that they had not died.
- Death of mankind is a result of Adam's sin. This is explicitly taught in Scripture. The lack of death of anything else is purely speculation. (Yes, I worded it that way on purpose. The Genesis accounts themselves leans towards the ideas that death was already a reality pre-Fall.)
- Maybe the word "day" doesn't mean 24-hr period of time in Genesis 1. (It makes a whole lot of sense also since the sun and moon seem to be created on day four and since the account in Genesis 2 apparently screws the order up for this type of reading.) In fact, Hebrews tends to be pretty clear that the Sabbath was a shadow of Jesus especially when coupled with Jesus and His Sabbath teachings.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]Since death doesn't mean physical death, then we must conclude that people do not physically die?[/quote]

Or it doesn't mean just physical death. When they sinned, they did become lose (or maybe obscure is a better word) something of their full humanity.

[quote author=Mathew Ward]People physically die as a result of sin as noted in verses earlier.

If Adam and Eve never sinned why would they have died?[/quote]

I think the answer here is pretty clearly that they would have lived forever especially when one considers the resurrection of Jesus and Paul's teaching surrounding it.

 

[Mathew Ward]

[quote author=rsc2a]So the Bible teaches that mankind has to deal with death as a result of the sin of Adam as one of the verses explicitly states. I would readily agree with that. The question is where does the Bible teach that other parts of creation would not also die?

I don't find death before sin in a literal 6 day creation, with God resting on the 7th day.

Explicit eisegesis then...

[quote author=Mathew Ward]I find that the results of Adam's sin also applied to the plants and animals, as clearly taught in the Bible. So as a result of Adam's sin we have death, before Adam's sin there was not death.[/quote]

If it is clearly taught in the Bible, then show me where it says that.

[quote author=Mathew Ward]If I held to a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and a pre-Adamic race that died before God created Adam. My question would be how did they die if death was the result of Adam's sin? Secondly, if God rested on the 7th day and he started creating day 1 to 6 (but there are millions of years between 2 verses) did God lie when He said He rested on the 7th day?[/quote]

- Holding to a gap theory is irrelevant to this discussion.
- I don't believe a pre-Adamic race would have died prior to Adam. In fact, based on the words of Cain, I would state that they had not died.
- Death of mankind is a result of Adam's sin. This is explicitly taught in Scripture. The lack of death of anything else is purely speculation. (Yes, I worded it that way on purpose. The Genesis accounts themselves leans towards the ideas that death was already a reality pre-Fall.)
- Maybe the word "day" doesn't mean 24-hr period of time in Genesis 1. (It makes a whole lot of sense also since the sun and moon seem to be created on day four and since the account in Genesis 2 apparently screws the order up for this type of reading.) In fact, Hebrews tends to be pretty clear that the Sabbath was a shadow of Jesus especially when coupled with Jesus and His Sabbath teachings.
[/quote]

I'm not reading into anything. I don't find death in the Bible before Adam's sin. If you do please point it out.

Genesis 2:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

How could there be these other living people that did not come from Eve, since she is the mother of all living?

Pure speculation is taking the word day and making it mean a non 24 hour period in Genesis 1.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Since death doesn't mean physical death, then we must conclude that people do not physically die?

You are insisting that death as a result of sin must be physical death.  But the Bible clearly says that God said ON THAT DAY they would surely die.  Adam and Eve did not die a physical death that day, so death in this context can't mean physical death. 

People physically die as a result of sin as noted in verses earlier.

If it didn't mean physical death in Genesis, there's no reason to believe it must mean physical death in Romans.

If Adam and Eve never sinned why would they have died?

Because maybe that's how they were created in the physical sense.  To live, get old, and die.  When they died ON THAT DAY, they didn't die a physical death, so death meant something else, such as spiritual death, for example. 

Or, to put it another way, you have eternal life, don't you?  Yet your body will still die. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Who made up these civilizations in Eden? What verses are you using for support?

Dunno who made them up. I don't think that they were of Adam's race but that is simply my opinion. But when Satan fell because of desecration of sanctuaries, evil dealings in trade and was humiliated before kings and kingdoms, Ezekiel 28 sure seems to indicate some kind of civilization.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

If there were pre-Adamic people how did they die?

Looks like Genesis 1:2 gives a description of what the earth looked like. The Bible mentions God using both darkness and water as means of judgment. The earth's condition with both of those elements. Is this how they died? Don't know.

Was sin introduced by these pre-Adamic people?

Was sin introduced to Satan when before he fell? Ezekiel 28 mentions MANY different sins he committed, not just pride before he was defrocked. Had sin been introduced to the pre-Adamic man? Logic would think so. They were victimized by violence, unfair trade and defamed religious rites. I would think they would understand and probably be able to commit those same acts.

Again, both answers above are my speculation and not above error, so don't think that I believe these are the only explanations.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]I'm not reading into anything. I don't find death in the Bible before Adam's sin. If you do please point it out.[/quote]

It's kind of hard to eat celery without killing it. Same for carrots. And potatoes. And turnips. And yams. And onions. And....

[quote author=Mathew Ward]How could there be these other living people that did not come from Eve, since she is the mother of all living?[/quote]

Mother of all living what?

[quote author=Mathew Ward]Pure speculation is taking the word day and making it mean a non 24 hour period in Genesis 1.[/quote]

Yes. After all, it makes perfect sense to talk about a 24-hr day before the creation of the sun itself, something that itself is part of determining how long a day is. And then you still have to deal with the fact that the creation order apparently gets screwed up in the second Genesis account.