KJVOist, 66 Book Onlyists, Hebrew Onlyists and the like.

praise_yeshua

New member
Doctor
Elect
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
4,347
Reaction score
1
Points
0
I've observed over the years that many of the arguments made by KJVOist to justify their beliefs.....actually keep showing up in other peoples theology. Even those who oppose KJVOism. Case in point, many of those here. I'll list some of the arguments below....

1. The Self attesting argument.

I hope you'll realize that this argument can made for just about anything. The KJVOist has long appealed to a self attesting argument to justify their beliefs. So do 66 Book Onlyists, Hebrew Onlyist and the like.

The BIG problem is..... there is clearly error in all of these beliefs.

a. Many authoritative figures in the early church held different views on what we would ultimately call the Protestant 66 book canon. In fact, you might be surprised to learn that not one single canon list agrees till over 300 years after the death of the apostles. Not one.

b. It is clear that the apostles used Old Greek texts of the OT in the early church. It is unmistakeable. They used it. They used it extensively. Repeatedly. The overwhelming majority of quotes taken from the OT in the New.... have an Old Greek influence. Yet there are many who refuse to even give the surviving Old Greek texts a "say" in translating the Scriptures. I call these people. Hebrew Onlyist.

2. The Consensus argument.

a. Well. I think anyone can see the failure of this argument. When you ask someone to define the scope of consensus..... they really don't want to talk about it. They point to a short window of time and exclude the vast majority of historical Christianity. Thus.... you're really not talking about any "real" consensus.

b. Another big failure in this type of argument is the fact..... God has never need the "consensus" of any group to establish His purpose. In fact, God often works in the minority and not in the majority.

3. The Authoritative argument.

a. The logical question is.... "who's authority". No matter how you slice it. Someone has made some very important decision for you. You haven't made them. You've just accepted them. Often "blindly" accepting them. It takes time to know the Truth. It really does. Most people don't want to spend time to get to know the Truth. If you look at some of the people that made these decision for you.... .You'll find they are not the best people around. When it comes of choices to be made among different sources.... "Authority" must be earned.

b. I don't know if you've noticed it or not..... but often... authority is really about "power". Sometimes. "Authority" is take and not really earned. Which really boils down the end result of the "Authority" argument....

What is.... is what God wanted. "Nothing could be further from the Truth". At every turn we blindly accept the authority of some and reject the authority of another.

We all use these arguments in some form or manner. HOW we use them is so very important.

My rant is over. So lets argue about it... :)
 
When Scripture says, of itself, "All Scripture is God-breathed..." Those words are true. They have authority. I believe them.

Either you believe Paul or you don't: "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord?s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized? (1 Cor 14:37)"

God is self attesting. I believe Him.

Your argument against self-attesting above is not dealing with the self-attesting issue.
 
FSSL said:
When Scripture says, of itself, "All Scripture is God-breathed..." Those words are true. They have authority. I believe them.

Either you believe Paul or you don't: "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord?s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized? (1 Cor 14:37)"

God is self attesting. I believe Him.

Your argument against self-attesting above is not dealing with the self-attesting issue.

Yes. The Truth of God is self-attesting. I was just dealing with its application. However, its certainly isn't self-attesting to the humanity. The flesh doesn't receive the "things of God". A list of canonical books isn't self-attesting.

Which list did "God breath"?
 
You keep mixing issues. The unsaved "flesh" cannot accept the self-attesting of Scripture.

If you do not believe Scripture has the right and authority to speak of itself, then you are placing an alien element above Scripture.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
FSSL said:
When Scripture says, of itself, "All Scripture is God-breathed..." Those words are true. They have authority. I believe them.

Except when those word were written, the NT as we know it did not yet exist.  In fact, some books in the current canon hadn't even been written yet.  So he could not have been referring to the 66 book canon you have. 
 
He was referring to ALL of Scripture. There is no doubt his readers understood that this included Paul's writings... which you reject.

It is awkward talking about "All Scripture is God-breathed" with a forum poster who does not believe that verse is God-breathed.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Except when those word were written, the NT as we know it did not yet exist.  In fact, some books in the current canon hadn't even been written yet.  So he could not have been referring to the 66 book canon you have.

If a city mandates a speed limit of 40 mph on municipal streets, streets that have not yet been constructed are not exempt from the law. When they are opened, the speed limit on them is 40 mph as well.

When the books of the New Testament were written, they were Scripture, and what Paul said of the Old Testament Scriptures was true of the New Testament Scriptures as well. Inspiration is an inherent property of the books. It's not some sort of imprimatur granted to them.
 
FSSL said:
He was referring to ALL of Scripture. There is no doubt his readers understood that this included Paul's writings... which you reject.

It is awkward talking about "All Scripture is God-breathed" with a forum poster who does not believe that verse is God-breathed.

I believe all scripture is God-breathed.  But you're applying it to the current 66 book canon, and those words were written before many of those books were written, and long before MEN decided which books should be included.  I'm sure you know the canon changed many times over the course of history.  To which particular canon were those words referring? 

 
You believe that Paul lied about his apostolic authority, yet you believe "All Scripture is God-given...?" Then you tell us the canon is wrong and you get a bent nose when I asked about Hebrews?

Inspiration did not come through a council. It is evident in the nature of the book... many of them you reject.

All 66 books, we have, are God-stamped.
 
FSSL said:
You keep mixing issues. The unsaved "flesh" cannot accept the self-attesting of Scripture.

If you do not believe Scripture has the right and authority to speak of itself, then you are placing an alien element above Scripture.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not so. I said it was self attesting. I was dealing the overall application of the argument and that this type of argument can be made for just about anything. Read what I wrote and stop pretending I said something I didn't.

A list of canonical books isn't self attesting.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
FSSL said:
When Scripture says, of itself, "All Scripture is God-breathed..." Those words are true. They have authority. I believe them.

Except when those word were written, the NT as we know it did not yet exist.  In fact, some books in the current canon hadn't even been written yet.  So he could not have been referring to the 66 book canon you have.

It wasn't. Some try to say it was prophetic but that is ridiculously self serving.
 
Ransom said:
The Rogue Tomato said:
Except when those word were written, the NT as we know it did not yet exist.  In fact, some books in the current canon hadn't even been written yet.  So he could not have been referring to the 66 book canon you have.

If a city mandates a speed limit of 40 mph on municipal streets, streets that have not yet been constructed are not exempt from the law. When they are opened, the speed limit on them is 40 mph as well.

Funny..... there is always exception to this example and you're trying to use it in a "fixed" manner. What a joke...

No all municipal streets have the same speed limit. Even when they are designed in the manner or hand the same amount of traffic.

When the books of the New Testament were written, they were Scripture, and what Paul said of the Old Testament Scriptures was true of the New Testament Scriptures as well. Inspiration is an inherent property of the books. It's not some sort of imprimatur granted to them.

Paul was referencing a canon of the OT that you don't except in your choice of canon today. He wasn't even referencing his own. He repeatedly said that his words did not contradict the Scripture but he never including them as being Scripture.
 
Before you all go off on some wild tangent..... I ask that you deal with the OP or start your own thread.

I can already see that is going to go in so many different directions that people will refuse to deal with the OP.

 
praise_yeshua said:
Some try to say it was prophetic but that is ridiculously self serving.

Then all future books are not God-given? (I.e. Titus, Philemon, James, Hebrews, revelations)
 
FSSL said:
praise_yeshua said:
Some try to say it was prophetic but that is ridiculously self serving.

Then all future books are not God-given? (I.e. Titus, Philemon, James, Hebrews, revelations)

I made a logical argument. I never said that some NT book weren't inspired of God. I made the argument that Paul didn't make that claim. Nor can you use his words to justify including your canon.

Its about having a proper methodology.
 
praise_yeshua said:
FSSL said:
praise_yeshua said:
Some try to say it was prophetic but that is ridiculously self serving.

Then all future books are not God-given? (I.e. Titus, Philemon, James, Hebrews, revelations)

I made a logical argument. I never said that some NT book weren't inspired of God. I made the argument that Paul didn't make that claim. Nor can you use his words to justify including your canon.

Its about having a proper methodology.

Exactly.  FSSL is making a KJVO-style argument.  "Here's a verse, and it must be referring to the KJV."  "Here's a verse, and it must be referring to the 66 book canon I have."

 
The Rogue Tomato said:
praise_yeshua said:
FSSL said:
praise_yeshua said:
Some try to say it was prophetic but that is ridiculously self serving.

Then all future books are not God-given? (I.e. Titus, Philemon, James, Hebrews, revelations)

I made a logical argument. I never said that some NT book weren't inspired of God. I made the argument that Paul didn't make that claim. Nor can you use his words to justify including your canon.

Its about having a proper methodology.

Exactly.  FSSL is making a KJVO-style argument.  "Here's a verse, and it must be referring to the KJV."  "Here's a verse, and it must be referring to the 66 book canon I have."

Exactly!!!
 
praise_yeshua said:
Funny..... there is always exception to this example and you're trying to use it in a "fixed" manner. What a joke...

Fine, whatever.

It's like saying that the definition of a prime number doesn't apply to prime numbers that haven't been discovered yet.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Paul was referencing a canon of the OT that you don't except in your choice of canon today.

I have no idea what the above sentence is supposed to mean. Have you ever considered a course in remedial English?
 
Ransom said:
praise_yeshua said:
Funny..... there is always exception to this example and you're trying to use it in a "fixed" manner. What a joke...

Fine, whatever.

It's like saying that the definition of a prime number doesn't apply to prime numbers that haven't been discovered yet.

Better example. However,  the principles of a prime number is rather easy to discern.

What principles do you apply to discerning the canon?
 
Back
Top