Let's talk about the word "standards"

[subllibrm]

I know a guy on a forum who doesn’t believe Christians should be involved in the political process of choosing their representatives because he believes they are dragging the name of Christ through the mud by mixing the world with the gospel. He believes if they ever do vote, they should never name who they voted for because lost people might be offended by their public support of them.

Stupid? Yes. Cult? I don't know.

I'm sad that you have run across such a person. Thankfully I don't know anyone who thinks like that.

 

[brianb]

Not going to movies at a theatre was something I only got from my mom as she apparently got it from church (The Canadian equivalent to GARBC) when she was growing up. While the rest of my family would go to movies at a theatre in the 1980s, I can only remember watching a couple of second-run movies at a local library in the 1970s before the days of video (Betamax, VHS). To this day I still haven't gone to a Cineplex or what you'd call a movie theatre and have no interest in it. Other than in an IFB church I never heard about "standards" in any church especially Baptist churches. It's just not as common in Canada and probably even Northern US.

 

[biscuit1953]

Not going to movies at a theatre was something I only got from my mom as she apparently got it from church (The Canadian equivalent to GARBC) when she was growing up. While the rest of my family would go to movies at a theatre in the 1980s, I can only remember watching a couple of second-run movies at a local library in the 1970s before the days of video (Betamax, VHS). To this day I still haven't gone to a Cineplex or what you'd call a movie theatre and have no interest in it. Other than in an IFB church I never heard about "standards" in any church especially Baptist churches. It's just not as common in Canada and probably even Northern US.

Up until the late 60’s foul language was strictly censored on American television and even in the 1970’s full length motion pictures made for television were also censored where foul language was cut out. Today, can someone name any movies made for adults, other than those made for children or Disney movies that don’t contain nudity, four letter curse words, or God with damn connected to it or Jesus Christ in a blasphemous way?

I was in high school when The Graduate came out in 1967 which was in the waning days of the Hays Code and it was one of the first mainstream movies I’m aware of in American theaters where nudity was allowed in a widespread way. In 1968 X-rated movies got their foot in the door and Hollywood in all its depravity was off to the races. I don’t need a preacher to tell me it isn’t right to cater to those things and I don’t want to take anyone’s freedom away to watch it. The only question I would have is why would any Christian want to support that kind of thing?

 

[AverageJoe]

They probably needed the pastors blessing to leave his church and be members of a different church. Cult.

Well, as we say down South...",bless your heart!" You're so negative about nearly everything you post on. I feel sorry for your family... Why in heck would someone need the permission of ANYONE to leave and join another church.?

 

[Bruh]

Well, as we say down South...",bless your heart!" You're so negative about nearly everything you post on. I feel sorry for your family... Why in heck would someone need the permission of ANYONE to leave and join another church.?

I don’t know how familiar you are with IFB culture but it’s a thing.

 

[biscuit1953]

Perhaps the motivation is largely due to following a fad or a social contagion.

“Like dude, I have Elvis tatted on my butt because his music…it inspires me to greatness”

This is what Phil Johnson touches on in the following video starting at the 8:12 mark.

"There are Christians, including some Christian leaders, who I would say are sinfully obsessed with the whims and
entertainments of this world. Chasing the latest fad is their favorite pastime. And they seem to think we can
harness worldly likes and dislikes and we can harness those things as an evangelistic strategy. And so they work hard to adopt
all the badges of worldly style and the key elements of worldly wisdom. You know, they immerse themselves in worldly
entertainments. They crave popularity and worldly approval. They may try to convince you even that a a neck tattoo
of a Bible verse or or a religious symbol is is really more effective than a real testimony. You should get your neck tattooed.
That's a great testimony. That is the lowbrow form of evangelical worldliness."

 

[illinoisguy]

They probably needed the pastors blessing to leave his church and be members of a different church. Cult.

Why in heck would someone need the permission of ANYONE to leave and join another church.?

Case study. In 1990 I left the membership of IFB Church #1 to join IFB Church #2. I asked the pastor of IFB Church #2 if he was going to check with the pastor of IFB Church #1, who was a long-time personal friend of his, about my transfer of membership, and he said No, there was no need for him to do that.

In 1992 when the pastor of IFB Church #2 became abusive of me and started using me as a punching bag, I left and joined IFB Church #3. The pastor of IFB Church #2 was enraged, saying that the pastor of IFB Church #3, also a personal friend, should have checked with him before accepting me as a member. The pastor of IFB Church #2 and his friends bombarded the pastor of IFB Church #3 with contacts, demanding that he revoke my church membership and extradite me back to IFB Church #2 for discipline. I was condemned because I "didn't handle things right," even though in theory it was the pastor of IFB Church #3, not me, who failed to "handle things right." I refused to go back to IFB Church #2 and they excommunicated me, with no cause for that action ever given.

And then people want to know why I am "jaded" with the IFB movement and do not want to go looking for another IFB church. (And yes, I totally agree that not all IFB churches are abusive like this. Maybe someone should put together a directory of non-abusive IFB churches - let's hope it is not a really thin volume).

Meanwhile, the 9 Marks movement teaches that members of affiliated churches are not allowed to leave without permission: "Sometimes church members who are in the process of discipline will attempt to resign their membership in order to avoid the church’s disciplinary action. Is this something that churches should allow? Definitely not."

Can Church Members Simply Resign Their Membership in Order to Avoid Church Discipline? - 9Marks

Sometimes church members who are in the process of discipline will attempt to resign their membership in order to avoid the church’s disciplinary action. Is this something that churches should allow? Definitely not. Churches shouldn’t allow members to simply resign their membership in order to...

www.9marks.org

"If someone tries to resign mid-process in order to “escape discipline,” should the church just let them go? Of course not. That would defeat the whole point of church discipline. Instead, the church must retain the right to refuse someone’s resignation and send them out another way—through excommunication."

Pastors, Don’t Let Your People Resign into Thin Air - 9Marks

So pastors, just as you pay careful attention to the front door of your church, keep a close eye on the back door, too.

www.9marks.org

Before you join any church, you may want to check to see if they are 9 Marks - "2261 churches found" - 105 in the DC area alone.

Church Search - 9Marks

www.9marks.org

 

[illinoisguy]

Here is the official statement by Jonathan Leeman, prominent 9 Marks rep, who says you need a permission slip to leave your church.

"To state the argument here in a single paragraph, we can say that ending one’s membership in a church requires the consent of both parties. We join a church by the consent of the church, and we leave a church by the consent of the church, because it’s the local church that has the authority to publicly represent Christ on earth, as an embassy does its home government. Christ gave the church the authority to bind and loose, not the individual Christian."

And yet, and yet - Leeman recognizes that it is sometimes right and proper to leave your church, but you have to stick around long enough to be excommunicated, and then you can leave.

"Yes, individuals are ultimately accountable to God and not to their churches. Yes, individuals should choose God’s side rather than the church’s side whenever a church requires its members to go against the Word of God. Yes, the church is a 'voluntary organization' insofar as the church cannot conscript members as with an army draft, or keep them from leaving, as with a slave. We’re justified by faith alone. Still, Christ has given the corporate gathering of believers an authority he has not given to the lone individual: the authority, we might call it, of guarding the borders of the kingdom by making public statements on behalf of Christ. It’s the authority of the White House press secretary to speak officially for the president, or of an embassy to speak officially for its government. The individual who attempts to preempt this process by resigning before the church enacts formal discipline is guilty of usurping the church’s apostolic authority to speak in this manner. In so doing, he compounds his guilt, like the criminal charged with 'resisting arrest.'”

The Preemptive Resignation—a Get Out of Jail Free Card? - 9Marks

Ending one's membership in a church requires the consent of both parties. We join a church by the consent of the church, and we leave a church by the consent of the church.

www.9marks.org

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Case study. In 1990 I left the membership of IFB Church #1 to join IFB Church #2. I asked the pastor of IFB Church #2 if he was going to check with the pastor of IFB Church #1, who was a long-time personal friend of his, about my transfer of membership, and he said No, there was no need for him to do that.

In 1992 when the pastor of IFB Church #2 became abusive of me and started using me as a punching bag, I left and joined IFB Church #3. The pastor of IFB Church #2 was enraged, saying that the pastor of IFB Church #3, also a personal friend, should have checked with him before accepting me as a member. The pastor of IFB Church #2 and his friends bombarded the pastor of IFB Church #3 with contacts, demanding that he revoke my church membership and extradite me back to IFB Church #2 for discipline. I was condemned because I "didn't handle things right," even though in theory it was the pastor of IFB Church #3, not me, who failed to "handle things right." I refused to go back to IFB Church #2 and they excommunicated me, with no cause for that action ever given.

And then people want to know why I am "jaded" with the IFB movement and do not want to go looking for another IFB church. (And yes, I totally agree that not all IFB churches are abusive like this. Maybe someone should put together a directory of non-abusive IFB churches - let's hope it is not a really thin volume).

Meanwhile, the 9 Marks movement teaches that members of affiliated churches are not allowed to leave without permission: "Sometimes church members who are in the process of discipline will attempt to resign their membership in order to avoid the church’s disciplinary action. Is this something that churches should allow? Definitely not."

Can Church Members Simply Resign Their Membership in Order to Avoid Church Discipline? - 9Marks

Sometimes church members who are in the process of discipline will attempt to resign their membership in order to avoid the church’s disciplinary action. Is this something that churches should allow? Definitely not. Churches shouldn’t allow members to simply resign their membership in order to...

www.9marks.org

"If someone tries to resign mid-process in order to “escape discipline,” should the church just let them go? Of course not. That would defeat the whole point of church discipline. Instead, the church must retain the right to refuse someone’s resignation and send them out another way—through excommunication."

Pastors, Don’t Let Your People Resign into Thin Air - 9Marks

So pastors, just as you pay careful attention to the front door of your church, keep a close eye on the back door, too.

www.9marks.org

Before you join any church, you may want to check to see if they are 9 Marks - "2261 churches found" - 105 in the DC area alone.

Church Search - 9Marks

www.9marks.org

As to someone under church discipline, I see their point.
One assumes church discipline is a last resort in response to unrepentant sinful behavior. As to your second post about 9 Marks as to leaving a church requires the church’s permission, that’s a crock.

 

[Ransom]

Meanwhile, the 9 Marks movement teaches that members of affiliated churches are not allowed to leave without permission: "Sometimes church members who are in the process of discipline will attempt to resign their membership in order to avoid the church’s disciplinary action. Is this something that churches should allow? Definitely not."

I tend to agree that if you resign your membership on good terms and while in good standing, it should be easy and painless.

But I happen to agree here that a member who is presently under church discipline should not be permitted to resign said membership until the disciplinary procedure has ended. Part of the membership covenant is to agree to abide by the by-laws, and a member shouldn't be able to get around the by-laws and clean his slate merely by refusing his discipline. Resigning as an act of refusing to submit to the just disciplinary authority of the elders ought to be regarded as a tacit admission of guilt.

This is assuming good faith on the part of the eldership, of course. Refusing to be disciplined by leaders who are themselves corrupt and unjust would be thoroughly justifiable. "We must obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

 

[FSSL]

I have a bit of a different perspective on this...

The Bible is not explicit in the process of leaving a church, mid discipline.

The Bible DOES give instruction to a woman, whose unbelieving spouse wants to leave... "let him go."

Since there is no particular directive given regarding the discipline process... just "let them go."

 

[Bruh]

Case study. In 1990 I left the membership of IFB Church #1 to join IFB Church #2. I asked the pastor of IFB Church #2 if he was going to check with the pastor of IFB Church #1, who was a long-time personal friend of his, about my transfer of membership, and he said No, there was no need for him to do that.

In 1992 when the pastor of IFB Church #2 became abusive of me and started using me as a punching bag, I left and joined IFB Church #3. The pastor of IFB Church #2 was enraged, saying that the pastor of IFB Church #3, also a personal friend, should have checked with him before accepting me as a member. The pastor of IFB Church #2 and his friends bombarded the pastor of IFB Church #3 with contacts, demanding that he revoke my church membership and extradite me back to IFB Church #2 for discipline. I was condemned because I "didn't handle things right," even though in theory it was the pastor of IFB Church #3, not me, who failed to "handle things right." I refused to go back to IFB Church #2 and they excommunicated me, with no cause for that action ever given.

And then people want to know why I am "jaded" with the IFB movement and do not want to go looking for another IFB church. (And yes, I totally agree that not all IFB churches are abusive like this. Maybe someone should put together a directory of non-abusive IFB churches - let's hope it is not a really thin volume).

Meanwhile, the 9 Marks movement teaches that members of affiliated churches are not allowed to leave without permission: "Sometimes church members who are in the process of discipline will attempt to resign their membership in order to avoid the church’s disciplinary action. Is this something that churches should allow? Definitely not."

Can Church Members Simply Resign Their Membership in Order to Avoid Church Discipline? - 9Marks

Sometimes church members who are in the process of discipline will attempt to resign their membership in order to avoid the church’s disciplinary action. Is this something that churches should allow? Definitely not. Churches shouldn’t allow members to simply resign their membership in order to...

www.9marks.org

"If someone tries to resign mid-process in order to “escape discipline,” should the church just let them go? Of course not. That would defeat the whole point of church discipline. Instead, the church must retain the right to refuse someone’s resignation and send them out another way—through excommunication."

Pastors, Don’t Let Your People Resign into Thin Air - 9Marks

So pastors, just as you pay careful attention to the front door of your church, keep a close eye on the back door, too.

www.9marks.org

Before you join any church, you may want to check to see if they are 9 Marks - "2261 churches found" - 105 in the DC area alone.

Church Search - 9Marks

www.9marks.org

One of the IFB churches we left to go to another IFB church I called the pastor of the church we were leaving to let him know that we were leaving and be going to this other IFB church. His answer, you have my blessing I told him I wasn’t asking for it these people.

 

[voicecrying]

"They may try to convince you even that a a neck tattoo of a Bible verse or or a religious symbol is is really more effective than a real testimony. You should get your neck tattooed.
That's a great testimony."

Has someone actually said this or is this just a strawman?

 

[Ransom]

Has someone actually said this or is this just a strawman?

It's from Phil Johnson, so more likely hyperbole than an actual straw man.