Let's talk about the word "standards"

This is a good discussion. I don't pretend to have all the answers with regard to how to handle church members who flee the coop instead of hanging around for the disciplinary process. It appears that the Apostle Paul did more than just let Hymenaeus and Alexander quietly go, in 1 Timothy 1:20 - he named names and "delivered them unto Satan," which may indicate a judgment of excommunication that would put other churches on record that Hymie and Alex were not fit prospects for transfer of membership.

I have had to leave a number of churches where the situation became abusive. I was always willing to be answer for any allegations of wrongdoing against me, and to meet with my accusers, but my experience has been that abusive church leaders did not want to talk about it or substantiate their accusations against me. I still believe in church discipline and in confronting wrongdoing in the church, but for me it is pointless to stick around and wrangle with leaders who will not talk to me and explain, from a Scriptural position, what they think I did wrong. (Of course, those leaders will always say I refused to meet with them, even though I was willing to meet and they didn't want to meet).

When I left IFB Church #2, they gave me no advance notice that I would be excommunicated, and they never afterwards gave any reason for that action to persons who asked them why. Their position was that their action bound other churches so that I could not ever again join another church of like faith and practice. And they made strenuous efforts to enforce that, by having me kicked out of any church of like faith and practice that I might try to join. So much for trying to find another IFB church like the one I left. Many denominations, such as the Presbyterian Church in America and Christian and Missionary Alliance, have policies that if you are excluded from one church, you are not allowed to join another church of the same denomination. So sometimes it is better to leave the movement you got into trouble with, and just move on.
 
FSSL said:
Better than making up rules that don't exist.
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I'm not so sure the rule doesn't exist.

"If he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Matt. 18:17).

Note Jesus says he "refuses to listen," and that is enough to establish his guilt. He doesn't say, "states his case before the church and is found guilty."

Seems to me that a valid application of this is: If the church has a process for carrying out discipline, and the member refuses to accept that process, that should be regarded as a de facto admission of guilt.
 
FSSL said:
Better than making up rules that don't exist. The Bible tells us how to deal with the unsaved who want to leave a marriage. It's not a stretch of application in my mind.

Why pester the unsaved who don't want to hang around? Just let them go and take them off the membership rolls.
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How do you know they’re unsaved? They never let the process take its Biblical course to make any credible determination of facts about their alleged sin, or eternal state.
 
illinoisguy said:
This is a good discussion. I don't pretend to have all the answers with regard to how to handle church members who flee the coop instead of hanging around for the disciplinary process. It appears that the Apostle Paul did more than just let Hymenaeus and Alexander quietly go, in 1 Timothy 1:20 - he named names and "delivered them unto Satan," which may indicate a judgment of excommunication that would put other churches on record that Hymie and Alex were not fit prospects for transfer of membership.

I have had to leave a number of churches where the situation became abusive. I was always willing to be answer for any allegations of wrongdoing against me, and to meet with my accusers, but my experience has been that abusive church leaders did not want to talk about it or substantiate their accusations against me. I still believe in church discipline and in confronting wrongdoing in the church, but for me it is pointless to stick around and wrangle with leaders who will not talk to me and explain, from a Scriptural position, what they think I did wrong. (Of course, those leaders will always say I refused to meet with them, even though I was willing to meet and they didn't want to meet).

When I left IFB Church #2, they gave me no advance notice that I would be excommunicated, and they never afterwards gave any reason for that action to persons who asked them why. Their position was that their action bound other churches so that I could not ever again join another church of like faith and practice. And they made strenuous efforts to enforce that, by having me kicked out of any church of like faith and practice that I might try to join. So much for trying to find another IFB church like the one I left. Many denominations, such as the Presbyterian Church in America and Christian and Missionary Alliance, have policies that if you are excluded from one church, you are not allowed to join another church of the same denomination. So sometimes it is better to leave the movement you got into trouble with, and just move on.
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The simple truth is, the Bible indicates the church has authority to bind and loose. If a person doesn’t want to adhere to the model for church discipline then it is fair to infer that other churches should be warned of the reluctance of said person to accept church authority.

As you and AverageJoe have indicated, there are kangaroo courts in church ecclesiology too. I doubt, as you’ve implied, that the person fleeing such a mockery of church discipline would feel comfortable in a church of like faith which operates with a similar stacked deck against the accused.
 
Ransom said:
I'm not so sure the rule doesn't exist.

"If he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Matt. 18:17).

Note Jesus says he "refuses to listen," and that is enough to establish his guilt. He doesn't say, "states his case before the church and is found guilty."

Seems to me that a valid application of this is: If the church has a process for carrying out discipline, and the member refuses to accept that process, that should be regarded as a de facto admission of guilt.
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In practice, how does this look in your church?

Is there a formal meeting with the church voting?
 
FSSL said:
In practice, how does this look in your church?

Is there a formal meeting with the church voting?
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Are you asking how our church does discipline?

From a previous thread on the topic:

Ransom said:
At my church, by the book:
  • allegations must be submitted to the elders in writing;
  • the member is promptly informed;
  • the member is given sufficient notice to attend a meeting of the elders;
  • at this meeting he may hear evidence presented, present his own, and speak (either in person or through a representative);
  • the member is informed of any decisions made;
  • any pubic statements by the elders are given to members only;
  • the elders make every effort not to present prejudicial information;
  • information submitted in confidence remains confidential.
Looks like due process to me. There's a reason churches have constitutions and by-laws. We don't just wing it at some secret Star Chamber hearing.
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Ransom said:
The membership covenant at my church stipulates that members agree to abide by the by-laws, which include church disciplinary procedures. A resignation clearly intended to avoid discipline would be an effort to get around the by-laws.

Basically, if you agreed to submit to those processes, you don't get to avoid them by rage-quitting.
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Years ago I was threatened with church discipline for walking away from being ordained. Don't know how they came to the decision that they could discipline me for that. The church that was wanting to ordain me had a very troubled past and had "called me" to pastor. Because of the sin in the church I didn't feel that I wanted their ordination. I've refused a couple of other times for similar reasons. I couldn't, and WOULDN'T accept ordination from churches who refuse to follow the Bible.
 
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