Longview Relinquishes the Short View?

[Vince Massi]

When some students with large bus routes dropped a student off ten miles from the college, the procedure was simple: 50 demerits for inappropriate practical joke (100 demerits was expulsion). Jim Vineyard insisted that he would take care of it.

Jim took the moral high ground. He accused the student of being a sex deviate, chewed him out, forbad him to tell anyone what had happened, and protected the first members of Vineyard's gangsters. The gangsters continued to attack and harass students, and Jim was always there to protect them. He took the moral high ground, slandering students from the pulpit and attaching permanent slanders to the transcripts of students who objected to his sins.

Gangsters got away with beating up two security guards who objected to their sins, and gang members were publicly honored with academic awards earned by other students. Records and grades were falsified, and bus routes were added to the gangsters' routes so the college could lie that they deserved the credit.

And how was this sin justified? Soul-winning. The gangsters were Godly because they were getting people saved--the students who opposed their sins were ungodly, because they were willing to decrease soul-winning by having violent gang members expelled. The people who practiced gang violence held the moral high ground.

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

I just listened to a 31 minute sermon.
Where is the sermon that goes to 1:20?

Sent from my moto g(6) (XT1925DL) using Tapatalk

I think I see what you're asking. It is one hour and twenty minutes into the entire service to which I refer.

 

[prophet]

I just listened to a 31 minute sermon.
Where is the sermon that goes to 1:20?

Sent from my moto g(6) (XT1925DL) using Tapatalk

I think I see what you're asking. It is one hour and twenty minutes into the entire service to which I refer.

Ok.
The link went to the sermon  only

Sent from my moto g(6) (XT1925DL) using Tapatalk

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

I just listened to a 31 minute sermon.
Where is the sermon that goes to 1:20?

Sent from my moto g(6) (XT1925DL) using Tapatalk

I think I see what you're asking. It is one hour and twenty minutes into the entire service to which I refer.

Ok.
The link went to the sermon  only

Sent from my moto g(6) (XT1925DL) using Tapatalk

WOW! Didn't even plan that.

 

[Twisted]

When some students with large bus routes dropped a student off ten miles from the college, the procedure was simple: 50 demerits for inappropriate practical joke (100 demerits was expulsion). Jim Vineyard insisted that he would take care of it.

Jim took the moral high ground. He accused the student of being a sex deviate, chewed him out, forbad him to tell anyone what had happened, and protected the first members of Vineyard's gangsters. The gangsters continued to attack and harass students, and Jim was always there to protect them. He took the moral high ground, slandering students from the pulpit and attaching permanent slanders to the transcripts of students who objected to his sins.

Gangsters got away with beating up two security guards who objected to their sins, and gang members were publicly honored with academic awards earned by other students. Records and grades were falsified, and bus routes were added to the gangsters' routes so the college could lie that they deserved the credit.

And how was this sin justified? Soul-winning. The gangsters were Godly because they were getting people saved--the students who opposed their sins were ungodly, because they were willing to decrease soul-winning by having violent gang members expelled. The people who practiced gang violence held the moral high ground.

Definitely off his meds.

 

[Vince Massi]

For those who came in late, I'm backing Bob Gray II in his repudiation of ruling a church through fear.

There is some tendency of Ruckmanite preachers to use the argument "Why are you listening to someone who doesn't respect the KJV anyway?" Bypassing the fact that most Christians do respect the KJV, the argument is invalid: God never told you to respect the KJV.

But the speaker actually means that he has rejected the Word of God in favor of the KJV. He is taking the moral high ground (I'm better than you, and I can prove it--I only use the KJV) by doing something wrong.

 

[Vince Massi]

I do not know if Ruckmanite leaders will attack Gray II or ignore him. But if they do attack him, they will be taking the moral high ground, claiming that their sins are better than doing right, because they increase soul-winning.

But I have heard arguments in favor of this. We are dealing with eternity; if we destroy the ministries of a few Godly servants of Christ in return for having hundreds more people spending eternity in Heaven, simple arithmetic tells us that sin is better than righteousness. If disobeying God and rejecting certain Scriptures ("Above all things have fervent charity among yourselves") gets more people saved, than disobeying God is better than obeying Him.

Of course you can show from Scripture that this is wrong. But you can show from arithmetic that God's Word is wrong.  This, essentially, is the moral high ground.

 

[Ransom]

I do not know if Ruckmanite leaders will attack Gray II or ignore him.

I do not care if Ruckmanite leaders will attack Gray II or ignore him.

 

[Twisted]

I do not know if Ruckmanite leaders will attack Gray II or ignore him.

 

[Vince Massi]

Jack Hyles practiced major deceit when he did not tell prospective students and their parents that his new college was unaccredited-something that was not an issue at the time, so it worked. But those first students did far more for Christ than most Christians will ever do. In fact, reported numbers make it safe to say that over a period of decades, over 1 million bus kids accepted Christ at various churches, in large part inspired by the students at HAC.

So common sense says that Jack's sin was a good idea, while Romans 3:8 ("Why not say--as some slanderously claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is just!") says that God condemns people who do this.


What's wrong with God? Doesn't He understand arithmetic?

 

[Vince Massi]

I want to explain that I am "for" soul-winning.  I went on one of our church van routes last evening and I will be going on another one this morning.

Now then: Doesn't arithmetic justify sins that result in getting more people saved? Jack Hyles and several other megachurch pastors claim fabulous numbers of converts and baptisms. But they don't tell about their adult attendance.

HAC opened in 1972, when Jack was running 8,000 in Sunday School. According to various accounts, ALL expansions of his main auditorium could be explained by HAC students and their families, not by increased numbers of local adult attendance. As the decades rolled by, FBCH did not have tens of thousands of former bus kids joining the adult congregation. Several new churches in the area report that over half their congregation are former FBCH members, but they are not reporting large numbers of saved bus kids joining their churches.

FBCH expanded to B,C,D, and even E and F Sunday schools. But their adult Sunday School never expanded beyond A.

Did we really get people saved? Yes. But the huge reports are not supported by the results.

 

[Ransom]

But those first students did far more for Christ than most Christians will ever do. In fact, reported numbers make it safe to say that over a period of decades, over 1 million bus kids accepted Christ at various churches, in large part inspired by the students at HAC.

Yeah, we've heard that claim before, Vince. So where are the 1 million Christians?

 

[Ransom]

But those first students did far more for Christ than most Christians will ever do. In fact, reported numbers make it safe to say that over a period of decades, over 1 million bus kids accepted Christ at various churches, in large part inspired by the students at HAC.

Yeah, we've heard that claim before, Vince. So where are the 1 million Christians?

Oh, never mind. I see you're just splitting your thoughts over several days to pump up your numbers. Typical HAC nitwit.

Just out of curiosity, if I were to delete all your posts and paste them all into one long one, would it ever get to the point?

 

[illinoisguy]

If more than 1,000,000 bus kids were saved through the influence of HAC/FBC, I have to assume that most of them were saved outside of the Chicago area, or that they have since relocated outside the area.  Attendance appears to be down not only at FBC-Hammond but at a lot of other IFB churches in the Chicago area, and some IFB churches have closed. 
Also, I would assume that there has been some overcounting of salvation decisions at FBC (perhaps purely accidental, I don't know).  Years ago I went to FBC just to be baptized, and Jack Hyles announced to the congregation that I had just accepted Christ as my Savior, which was not true - I was saved 17 years earlier at another church, and did not tell the counselor that I was coming forward to be saved.  I never visited FBC again and no effort was made to contact me and invite me back to church, even though FBC bus workers were patronizing the Christian bookstore that I owned, so they knew where to find me.  A few years later, Dr. Sumner's exposure came out, and I stopped selling Brother Hyles books and had my name removed from the FBC membership list (at least, I think I did.  Who knows?)

 

[Twisted]

If more than 1,000,000 bus kids were saved through the influence of HAC/FBC, I have to assume that most of them were saved outside of the Chicago area, or that they have since relocated outside the area.  Attendance appears to be down not only at FBC-Hammond but at a lot of other IFB churches in the Chicago area, and some IFB churches have closed. 
Also, I would assume that there has been some overcounting of salvation decisions at FBC (perhaps purely accidental, I don't know).  Years ago I went to FBC just to be baptized, and Jack Hyles announced to the congregation that I had just accepted Christ as my Savior, which was not true - I was saved 17 years earlier at another church, and did not tell the counselor that I was coming forward to be saved.  I never visited FBC again and no effort was made to contact me and invite me back to church, even though FBC bus workers were patronizing the Christian bookstore that I owned, so they knew where to find me.  A few years later, Dr. Sumner's exposure came out, and I stopped selling Brother Hyles books and had my name removed from the FBC membership list (at least, I think I did.  Who knows?)

We all have heard stories of "baptismal issues".  Your story reminds me of one where a HAC grad was pastoring in Terre Haute, iN and one Sunday morning there was no one to baptize.  The pastor told the staff, "Get someone to be baptized or look for a new job".

Later this "soul-winning pastor" left his church and fled to Fairhaven to become an assistant pastor.  He had sold bonds improperly.

And we mock the SBC?  (well, yes, because it's so easy)

 

[Ransom]

If more than 1,000,000 bus kids were saved through the influence of HAC/FBC, I have to assume that most of them were saved outside of the Chicago area, or that they have since relocated outside the area. . . .

Also, I would assume that there has been some overcounting of salvation decisions at FBC (perhaps purely accidental, I don't know).

Accidental? I doubt it.

This whole "one million saved" thing comes up on the FFF every so often, which is why I like to point out just how many people it is.

One million Christians would fill 100 churches of 10,000 people, or, conversely, 10,000 churches of 100 people. Is there anything like that in Chicagoland?

I live in Ottawa, Canada. The entire city is only just about to reach 1,000,000 in population.

So, where are the Christians, HAC?

 

[Walt]

I do not know if Ruckmanite leaders will attack Gray II or ignore him.

I do not care if Ruckmanite leaders will attack Gray II or ignore him.

Ditto!

 

[Walt]

If more than 1,000,000 bus kids were saved through the influence of HAC/FBC, I have to assume that most of them were saved outside of the Chicago area, or that they have since relocated outside the area.  Attendance appears to be down not only at FBC-Hammond but at a lot of other IFB churches in the Chicago area, and some IFB churches have closed. 
Also, I would assume that there has been some overcounting of salvation decisions at FBC (perhaps purely accidental, I don't know).  Years ago I went to FBC just to be baptized, and Jack Hyles announced to the congregation that I had just accepted Christ as my Savior, which was not true - I was saved 17 years earlier at another church, and did not tell the counselor that I was coming forward to be saved.  I never visited FBC again and no effort was made to contact me and invite me back to church, even though FBC bus workers were patronizing the Christian bookstore that I owned, so they knew where to find me.  A few years later, Dr. Sumner's exposure came out, and I stopped selling Brother Hyles books and had my name removed from the FBC membership list (at least, I think I did.  Who knows?)

Truth be told, most of those counted "saved" at FBCH and LBT were just talked into saying a prayer; there was no real understanding of their need of salvation, and often, no evidence whatsoever of change.

 

[Vince Massi]

The fantastic numbers reported by various IFB megachurches are not supported by the results. The cold truth is that these churches did NOT practice New Testament soul-winning:

1) No one in the Bible was saved by repeating a prayer.
2) IFB preachers sometimes took strong stands against repentance, the results of the new birth, the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of saints, etc., because their "converts" did not have any of these things.
3) Nowhere does Paul command us to go soul-winning; but he spends entire chapters telling us how to use our spiritual gifts to build up the church.

These preachers accused others of not practicing NT soul-winning; Romans 2:1 states that they were describing themselves.

 

[Ransom]

The fantastic numbers reported by various IFB megachurches are not supported by the results.

Captain Obvious saves the day again!