Longview Relinquishes the Short View?

In the city of Chicago itself (2.7 million people, now smaller than Toronto) there are about 14 IFB churches that I am aware of.  If they each have an active membership of 100 average (perhaps too high) then that is 1400 active IFB church members in Chicago, many of them driving in from the suburbs.  There are lots more IFB churches in the suburbs but I don't think they are not doing so well either, numbers-wise.  So, to ask where the 1,000,000 Hammond bus converts went is a good question.  I know where one of them went, because she was my girlfriend for a while - she had ridden the bus to Hammond but had become non-religious and told me she was not a "church girl."  So, 999,999 more to be accounted for - probably mostly on the mission field or gone on to Glory.

I haven't visited Tom Brennan's church in Chicago, Maplewood Bible Baptist Church, in many years.  On their website, the question "How big is your church?" is answered by saying "It shouldn't matter."  If an IFB church is doing well numerically, it is a sign of God's favor and blessing on their shallow "repeat this prayer after me" soul-winning practices.  If an IFB church is not doing so well numerically, it is a sign of God's favor on them for being so faithful to their strict Old Paths standards that most people, even those who are IFB born and bred, no longer wish to walk in.

 
The original idea is that if Ruckmanite leaders attack Bob Gray II for repudiating sin, they will take "the moral high ground," defending their sins because of the numbers of souls saved. However, their huge numbers are not supported by reality.

When I was at HAC, bus routes would be assigned to leaders, and then the college would lie that the leaders deserved credit for building those huge routes. And HAC claimed that these leaders were spiritual giants because they had such large routes.

Some of these leaders did go on to succeed in the pastorate. Some became Atheists.  Some disappeared. And I cannot find any that have not repudiated HAC.
 
Twisted said:
Vince Massi said:
I do not know if Ruckmanite leaders will attack Gray II or ignore him.
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Now this made me laugh out loud!  Love to start Monday with a good laugh!
 
It looks like Bob Gray II will survive his rejection of sin, so let me point out a similar problem.

Over the decades I have encountered  HAC grads who are concerned that HAC no longer approves of them, so let me make a few points:

1) I cannot find any college, of any type, that is even close to HAC in being despised by its grads.
2) After thundering forth about the Word of God, HAC quickly rejected that Word in favor of the KJV.
3) For decades, HAC and FBCH have protected the Dave Hyles and Jim Vineyard scandals, disobeying God's commands to make things right.
4) As the years roll by, increasing numbers of HAC grads learn from the Bible and real life, that "easy believism" does not work. HAC still holds to it.

Don't worry about what HAC thinks.
 
Vince Massi said:
It looks like Bob Gray II will survive his rejection of sin, so let me point out a similar problem.

Over the decades I have encountered  HAC grads who are concerned that HAC no longer approves of them, so let me make a few points:

1) I cannot find any college, of any type, that is even close to HAC in being despised by its grads.
2) After thundering forth about the Word of God, HAC quickly rejected that Word in favor of the KJV.
3) For decades, HAC and FBCH have protected the Dave Hyles and Jim Vineyard scandals, disobeying God's commands to make things right.
4) As the years roll by, increasing numbers of HAC grads learn from the Bible and real life, that "easy believism" does not work. HAC still holds to it.

Don't worry about what HAC thinks.
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Vince reminds me of Planters.

You know he's nuts but you can't stop with just one.

So now Vince is telling us the KJV is NOT the word of God!

And again, for the twentieth time, this thread is NOT about HAC!
 
Walt said:
Ransom said:
Vince Massi said:
I do not know if Ruckmanite leaders will attack Gray II or ignore him.
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I do not care if Ruckmanite leaders will attack Gray II or ignore him.
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Ditto!
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Vince, Where do you get the Peter Ruckman title from.

I never once heard Peter Ruckman promoted at any conference or event at First Baptist Church of Hammond or at any Fundamentalist or Fresh Oil Conference over the years. I don't remember ever hearing Jack Hyles, Jack Schapp or any staff member of FBCH ever promoting Ruckman. He did not corner the market on the KJVO concept. 
 
Vince:

You seem to be the only one on here whining about Vinyard. I have it on good authority you made up most of the Vineyard stories because he thought you were a wimp and often hurt your feelings and made you cry. What exactly did he do to make you hate him so much? Why don't you set the record straight. I'm not a Vineyard defender I just know what I hear.
 
Sword, I don't know who your good authority is, but I wonder if it isn't someone who earned the nickname "Foulmouth" at both HAC and OBC, who got run off by Jim Vineyard for a good reason, and the two never spoke again.

Not only did Jim never make me cry, but I left his college on good terms. and had friendly contact with him after I left. Because I reject idealism, I tell the truth:

Jim provided a lot of good training that has served me well over the decades.  And Vineyard's Gangsters were a scandal that HAC needs to repent of.

Both statements are true, and I stand by both of them.
 
Geez.  This thread topic is actually one that deserves good discussion from members on this forum, especially those from way back.  Instead, Vince tries to monopolize it with his stories from the Roadway Gang.  We are all so tired of hearing how you forgive these Christian brothers who were so mean to you that they dropped you off away from home and, though you have Christian love towards them, you will always remind every one how scandalous you believe they are.  Geez.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
Geez.  This thread topic is actually one that deserves good discussion from members on this forum, especially those from way back.  Instead, Vince tries to monopolize it with his stories from the Roadway Gang.  We are all so tired of hearing how you forgive these Christian brothers who were so mean to you that they dropped you off away from home and, though you have Christian love towards them, you will always remind every one how scandalous you believe they are.  Geez.
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You are spot on.  I was looking if there was an option to just close the thread. He has do distracted the original intention.
 
Afraid not, BCH. Vineyard's gangsters never attacked me, dropped me off, or attacked anyone who drove to work at UPS with me.
 
Vince Massi said:
The fantastic numbers reported by various IFB megachurches are not supported by the results. The cold truth is that these churches did NOT practice New Testament soul-winning:

1) No one in the Bible was saved by repeating a prayer.
2) IFB preachers sometimes took strong stands against repentance, the results of the new birth, the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of saints, etc., because their "converts" did not have any of these things.
3) Nowhere does Paul command us to go soul-winning; but he spends entire chapters telling us how to use our spiritual gifts to build up the church.

These preachers accused others of not practicing NT soul-winning; Romans 2:1 states that they were describing themselves.
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Thanks - I agree with #1; it is a pity that it has become such a standard way.

As for #2, the ringleaders of this were Jack Hyles and Curtis Hutson. I can appreciate the goods things they have done, but that doesn't mean that they are blameless in every area.  There were other preachers that stood strongly against the tearing down of the tearing down of the teaching of repentance.  I don't know WHY; you may be right.

#3 - interesting; would you care to elaborate? What do you say to all of those who quote "He that winneth souls is wise", and the so-called Great Commission, and Acts 1:8 and Acts 20:20 and the other passages that are claimed to represent the button-holing techniques currently used?
 
Vince Massi said:
It looks like Bob Gray II will survive his rejection of sin, so let me point out a similar problem.

Over the decades I have encountered  HAC grads who are concerned that HAC no longer approves of them, so let me make a few points:

1) I cannot find any college, of any type, that is even close to HAC in being despised by its grads.
2) After thundering forth about the Word of God, HAC quickly rejected that Word in favor of the KJV.
3) For decades, HAC and FBCH have protected the Dave Hyles and Jim Vineyard scandals, disobeying God's commands to make things right.
4) As the years roll by, increasing numbers of HAC grads learn from the Bible and real life, that "easy believism" does not work. HAC still holds to it.

Don't worry about what HAC thinks.
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I find early HAC graduates still tend to worship Jack Hyles; they have repudiated things since Schaap and afterwards.
 
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