"Luciferase"?

Ransom

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You take it in the context of the passage.
You didn't answer my question, Zan.

Form of . . . a bloviating gasbag!
 

Ransom

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Synonyms & Antonyms for endurance
That's not the way a thesaurus works. Endurance is the synonym. And the antonym. Probably the vestibule, too.

All the other things after it are just "applicational uses."

You should listen to the UGC Wonder Twins, your intellectual betters. They saw a thesaurus once. It was in a museum with all the other giant skeletons.
 

tmjbog

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First of all, the Greek Texts and Concordances have been updated and revised so many times that there's no way to know exactly what Greek verse the KJV translators translated from. We can't 100% trust any Greek Text today (or even concordances like Strong's Concordance) because most of them draw from the Alexandrian-type along with the Byzantine-type.

Second, let's try to go with your method, though I can't give it much credence either way because of my first point: compare that Greek word to the one used in Matt. 24:13 for "endurance". Are they the exact same word in the modern Greek Texts?
I don't know. Let's not lose focus. The Greek word in Rev 3:10 for patience is better translated in some of the newer versions. After telling me to do careful analysis and the KJV will be the obvious choice; now you are saying everything is corrupted and a careful analysis is a waste of time-just trust the KJV. So what is your position? Will the KJV-O theory hold up to careful analysis or does it just have to be taken on faith?
 

UGC

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That's not how they work.
Let's break this down very simply:
Latin: lux, lucis. definition in english: light
Latin: fero. definition in english: to bring

You can do math right? What's 1+1?

Latin: Lucis + fero = Lucifer
English: light + binger = Light Bringer.

See now, that wasn't so hard, Ransom.

Now let's try this with Metanoia.

Greek: meta. definition in english: transcending, change
Greek: noia. definition in english: thought, thinking

Greek: meta + noia = Metanoia
English: change + thought = Change of mind
 
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Ransom

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First of all, the Greek Texts and Concordances have been updated and revised so many times that there's no way to know exactly what Greek verse the KJV translators translated from. We can't 100% trust any Greek Text today (or even concordances like Strong's Concordance) because most of them draw from the Alexandrian-type along with the Byzantine-type.
That you, Gail?

Shape of . . . a thrice-married drag queen!

Form of . . . a pseudo-theological con artist!
 

Ransom

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Let's break this down very simply:
Latin: lux, lucis. definition in english: light
Latin: fero. definition in english: to bring
Congratulations. You found the etymology of the word "lucifer." That is the Latin words that the English word is derived from. It is not the definition of "lucifer"--the actual meaning(s) of "lucifer" when used by English speakers.

Maybe you should read a book about fallacies sometime. Start with the etymological fallacy.

Follow that up with the preface of the dictionary that tells you how to use the dictionary.
 

UGC

FagBoyCigar
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You found the etymology of the word "lucifer."
No that's what you did.

Etymology is "the study of the origin of words and the way in which their meanings have changed throughout history."

You do everything, and I do mean everything, backwards.
 

tmjbog

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Your analysis is lazy. I'd like to know. Should I get e-sword? Lol.

"The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all." -Matt. 18:26 KJV

Is this guy asking the Lord to "have perseverance" with him? What the heck?

"But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." -Rom. 8:25, Church Age: patiently wait
"And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise." -Heb. 6:15, Great Tribulation: patiently endure

Here patience is used as an adverb to modify entirely different verbs. Are you going to argue that "wait" means the same as "endure" now too?

There's also the interpretation that Revelation 3:10 is talking about GOD's patience, not ours. After all, it says they kept the word of HIS patience (secondary interpretation but it's still possible). God was has certainly been patient and longsuffering during the Church Age, and the context makes sense for Revelation 3:10 as he's about to pour out his wrath.
“have patience”ΜακροθύμησονTo be long-spirited, i.e., (objectively) forbearing or (subjectively) patient

Nope, patience as the Greek indicates.
 

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FagBoyCigar
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The Greek word in Rev 3:10 for patience is better translated in some of the newer versions.
Actually I just checked, it's possible this is correct (we can't know for sure as I'm using Scrivener's TR, a guy who ruined everything with Sinaiticus).

It is indeed true that the context of the passages is not talking about salvation, but their works:

"I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first." -Rev. 2:19

This proves that perseverance is something additional, not tied together with faith alone, as it is listed alongside faith here along with works, service, and charity. A perhaps stronger case against the soteriological position of Perseverance of the Saints in the Church Age.
 
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Ransom

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No that's what you did.
No, that's what the dictionary people did.

History and Etymology for Lucifer

Middle English, the morning star, a fallen rebel archangel, the Devil, from Old English, from Latin, the morning star, from lucifer light-bearing, from luc-, lux light + -fer -ferous — more at light

Source: Lucifer

And, of course, appealing to either and insisting that it (and not usage) establishes the true meaning of a word, is still a fallacy, yet another subject you prove constantly you know nothing about.

I should note also that the thing the Merriam-Webster Web site (i.e. the dictionary) calls the "definition" is the thing you insisted wasn't the definition, but some blithering nonsense you called the "applicational use."

So what you call the "definition" isn't the definition; it's the etymology.
And what you call "applicational use" is the definition.
And you whine about my not knowing about fallacies, when you employ them with every single post. Obvious ones, too.
Is there any time you open your mouth and say something that isn't hilariously wrong? Your ignorance is only exceeded by your arrogance.

You Wonder Twins aren't merely dumb. You're duuuuuuumb. In fact, you put the "duh" in "dumb."

Go learn to read, use a dictionary, do research, and reason logically. Catch up with the fourth grade.
 

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FagBoyCigar
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See, even doing this Greek word comparison, a problem between the versions already showed up:

Heb. 10:39
"But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls." ESV
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." KJV

I looked up the Greek word in the Textus Receptus (who knows the reliability of this version tbh, but it's a light exercise. I don't put too much weight on the Greek, this is just for fun right now), and the word "perdition" is probably more accurate in the KJV because it's the same Greek word used in Matt. 7:13 that says broad is the way that leads to hell.

The New Versions had to preserve eternal security otherwise it would say you could draw back and lose future salvation, which I believe is possible if one takes the mark of the Beast in the Tribulation period (we're already saved in the Church Age).

Also, the ESV says they have faith AND preserve their own souls! That's works! Blatantly different from the KJV that says they believe to the saving of the soul.

I am telling you, there are too many doctrinal differences between versions. I've seen them show up time and time again in concerns and questions people have in church Bible studies. So I speak from repeated experience.
 

illinoisguy

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Hey everybody, did you notice that the dispies cannot make up their mind whether "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 is Satan or the Antichrist? That is the problem with dispy allegorizing - they can make anything in the Bible say whatever they want it to say.
 

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Screen Shot 2020-05-08 at 12.11.29 PM.png Screen Shot 2020-05-08 at 12.11.38 PM.png
By comparison the ESV's "have faith AND preserve their souls" matches the Catholic and Calvinist doctrines of soteriology. It does not match the Greek Text.

The Greek here clearly says "believe into the procuring of the soul", nothing more complicated or multi-stepped than that.

And this is Scriveners late 1894 Textus Receptus so it lacks reliability (he was also a member of the committee for the Revised Version).
Remember also that the KJV translators used many sources outside the TR.

This is why I don't mess with the Greek.
 

Ransom

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That is the problem with dispy allegorizing - they can make anything in the Bible say whatever they want it to say.
Well, since we are also using word etymology as the definition now, I must say . . . they seem like awfully nice fellows. ;)
 

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Hey everybody, did you notice that the dispies cannot make up their mind whether "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 is Satan or the Antichrist? That is the problem with dispy allegorizing - they can make anything in the Bible say whatever they want it to say.
What? The Antichrist is Satan incarnate, they're the same being.

The man of sin will be a man, but after he's killed, he will resurrect as the Son of Perdition and Satan will literally indwell him. That's the Antichrist.
 

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FagBoyCigar
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they seem like awfully nice fellows.
You really set the example

If we just swapped out your arguments for KJV-O ones, but kept your conversation style the same, we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between you and a Ruckmanite.
 

Ransom

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we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between you and a Ruckmanite.
It's funny watching one of Ruckman's catamites trying to use that as an insult . . .

(Something tells me Dictionary Boy didn't bother looking up the, ahem, "definition" of "nice," and he's still going by the "applicational use." LOL!)
 

Twisted

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The KJV translators used a consistent method of translating the same Greek word using the same English word in different places.
Sometimes yes, but not always. No translation could do that.
 

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FagBoyCigar
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OHHHHH snap. Greek Scholar James has arrived. (I'm joking. Partially.)

Look how the New Versions changed Hebrews 4:6 to a blatant works-only salvation!

"Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience," -NASB
"Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:" -KJV

Here's what Scrivener's TR Interlinear says the word translated as "unbelief" in the KJV means:
Screen Shot 2020-05-08 at 1.43.07 PM.png

I ran this through a concordance and guess what? It's the same Greek word used in Romans 11:32:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." -KJV

"unpersuadableness" is more closely "unbelief" in the English language, as "disobedience" carries natural connotation of "obedience" to rules or laws in our language.

You "obey" the laws of the government. Which is works.
You are "unpersuaded" by beliefs you don't agree with.

The New Versions will confuse the average reader into works salvation.
 

Ransom

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OHHHHH snap. Greek Scholar James has arrived.
Maybe he can teach you how to read a dictionary or a book on logic?
 
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