Meanwhile 4D Chess Continues

JimKnox said:
Uh-huh....AND Rev 21 gives us the physical dimensions of a City in which the Redeemed of the earth go in and out...etc.

It is an error to say it is ONLY God's people since Scripture from front to back ALSO says the City of God is a literal, visible, physical place on the new earth.
👌👍☝️
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Right, LOL. Most of it's in space. Those robes of white are really space suits.




I find that Dispies are literal with the Revelation when they can be, and figurative when it suits their narratives, as in their locust/huey cobra interpretations and other depictions.

You'll do better to take the words of the Apostles to the Revelation rather than taking your notions of the Revelation to them. Things work out a whole lot better. Paul in Galatians and in Hebrews says the Heavenly Jerusalem is the Church.

Ezekiel's temple was measured too. It was all out of whack for a physical place.
 
Ekklesian said:
Right, LOL. Most of it's in space. Those robes of white are really space suits.




I find that Dispies are literal with the Revelation when they can be, and figurative when it suits their narratives, as in their locust/huey cobra interpretations and other depictions.

You'll do better to take the words of the Apostles to the Revelation rather than taking your notions of the Revelation to them. Things work out a whole lot better. Paul in Galatians and in Hebrews says the Heavenly Jerusalem is the Church.

Ezekiel's temple was measured too. It was all out of whack for a physical place.
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You forget that context is one of the most basic fundamental foundations when interpreting scripture.

Symbolism – Like and as used throughout Revelation shows us where passages should be taken literally. The Bible if filled with metaphors such as God telling Israel “I carried you on eagles’ wings” (Exodus 19:4).

A simple rule: If the literal meaning of a passage leads to obvious absurdity, but a figurative one gives clarity, then the passage is probably using symbols.

This leads to another rule of biblical interpretation. A symbol will have a non-symbolic meaning. In other words, there is something real (a real person, historical event or trait) behind every figure of speech.

I don’t understand your obsession to erase the biblical prophecies concerning the regathering of the Jews back to their homeland by refusing to take them literally. You aren’t betraying Reformed theology by acknowledging that. In The Spurgeon Study Bible Charles Spurgeon clearly believed Israel was separate from the Church. This is what he said about the prophecies in Zechariah.

“This vision and prophecy graciously reveals the future history of Jerusalem. We may spirtualize it and say Jerusalem signifies the church, but we should not forget the literal meaning of the words. The Jewish people and their royal city will remain the center of the manifestations of divine glory. The nations of the earth will be joined to the Lord, a suburban population to the chosen city. Jerusalem will be rebuilt in more than her former splendor; The Jews will be restored to their own land; and Messiah will reign as a prince of the house of David.”

Martyn Lloyd-Jones who was amillenial and non-dispensational said this:

“To me 1967, the year that the Jews occupied all of Jerusalem, was very crucial. Luke 21:43 is one of the most significant prophetic verses: ‘Jerusalem,’ it reads, ‘shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.’ It seems to me that that took place in 1967—something crucially important that had not occurred in 2,000 years. Luke 21:43 is one fixed point. But I am equally impressed by Romans 11 which speaks of a great spiritual return among the Jews before the end time. While this seems to be developing, even something even more spectacular may be indicated. We sometimes tend to foreshorten events, yet I have a feeling that we are in the period of the end. . . . I think we are witnessing the breakdown of politics. I think even the world is seeing that. Civilization is collapsing.”

 
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Ekklesian said:
Right, LOL. Most of it's in space. Those robes of white are really space suits.




I find that Dispies are literal with the Revelation when they can be, and figurative when it suits their narratives, as in their locust/huey cobra interpretations and other depictions.

You'll do better to take the words of the Apostles to the Revelation rather than taking your notions of the Revelation to them. Things work out a whole lot better. Paul in Galatians and in Hebrews says the Heavenly Jerusalem is the Church.

Ezekiel's temple was measured too. It was all out of whack for a physical place.
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Oh, ok.
You stopped talking to me and began talking to some imaginary group of people you call 'dispies'; right?

The literal, physical, visible City of God in Revelation is a place where the Redeemed go IN and OUT.

Since when do the Redeemed ever go OUT of the Church if your hypothesis is correct?
 
biscuit1953 said:
[Martyn Lloyd-Jones said] But I am equally impressed by Romans 11 which speaks of a great spiritual return among the Jews before the end time.
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Romans 11 says absolutely nothing about a literal restoration of the political/military nation of Israel in the end time. In fact, there is absolutely nothing about that anywhere in the New Testament. We as Christians (Jewish and Gentile) are instructed to focus on the "Jerusalem which is above," not the earthly one. See John 4:21, Galatians 4:25-26, Hebrews 11:16, 12:22, Revelation 11:8.

Assuming that Martyn Lloyd-Jones was correct about a "great spiritual return among the Jews," I am all for that, but what evidence do we have that anything remotely like that is currently taking place? If it is taking place, what does that have to do with unsaved Jews moving to Israel?
 
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illinoisguy said:
Romans 11 says absolutely nothing about a literal restoration of the political/military nation of Israel in the end time. In fact, there is absolutely nothing about that anywhere in the New Testament. We as Christians (Jewish and Gentile) are instructed to focus on the "Jerusalem which is above," not the earthly one. See John 4:21, Galatians 4:25-26, Hebrews 11:16, 12:22, Revelation 11:8.

Assuming that Martyn Lloyd-Jones was correct about a "great spiritual return among the Jews," I am all for that, but what evidence do we have that anything remotely like that is currently taking place? If it is taking place, what does that have to do with unsaved Jews moving to Israel?
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I guess it shows that there are diverse understandings among Reformed groups just as there are among Dispensationalists. There are extreme positions in both camps.
 
Ekklesian said:
Which one will you kill Arabs for?
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Why do you spiritualize prophecies which clearly teach that God would return the Jews to their homeland, never to be driven out again (Amos 9:14-15)? You can make the Bible mean anything you wish it to mean if you do that. “Not taking the Bible literally is when the interpretation is limited only by the imagination of the reader. This is to say, the meaning is not truly limited at all. It can mean whatever the receiver perceives it to mean and is often defined by outside authorities like tradition or popularity.”

The Dangers of Spiritualizing the Bible

graceambassadors.com graceambassadors.com
 
@Tarheel Baptist , jussoze yanoze, @biscuit1953 is my fave idolator.

biscuit1953 said:
You forget that context is one of the most basic fundamental foundations when interpreting scripture.

Symbolism – Like and as used throughout Revelation shows us where passages should be taken literally. The Bible if filled with metaphors such as God telling Israel “I carried you on eagles’ wings” (Exodus 19:4).

A simple rule: If the literal meaning of a passage leads to obvious absurdity, but a figurative one gives clarity, then the passage is probably using symbols.

This leads to another rule of biblical interpretation. A symbol will have a non-symbolic meaning. In other words, there is something real (a real person, historical event or trait) behind every figure of speech.

I don’t understand your obsession to erase the biblical prophecies concerning the regathering of the Jews back to their homeland by refusing to take them literally. You aren’t betraying Reformed theology by acknowledging that. In The Spurgeon Study Bible Charles Spurgeon clearly believed Israel was separate from the Church. This is what he said about the prophecies in Zechariah.

“This vision and prophecy graciously reveals the future history of Jerusalem. We may spirtualize it and say Jerusalem signifies the church, but we should not forget the literal meaning of the words. The Jewish people and their royal city will remain the center of the manifestations of divine glory. The nations of the earth will be joined to the Lord, a suburban population to the chosen city. Jerusalem will be rebuilt in more than her former splendor; The Jews will be restored to their own land; and Messiah will reign as a prince of the house of David.”

Martyn Lloyd-Jones who was amillenial and non-dispensational said this:

“To me 1967, the year that the Jews occupied all of Jerusalem, was very crucial. Luke 21:43 is one of the most significant prophetic verses: ‘Jerusalem,’ it reads, ‘shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.’ It seems to me that that took place in 1967—something crucially important that had not occurred in 2,000 years. Luke 21:43 is one fixed point. But I am equally impressed by Romans 11 which speaks of a great spiritual return among the Jews before the end time. While this seems to be developing, even something even more spectacular may be indicated. We sometimes tend to foreshorten events, yet I have a feeling that we are in the period of the end. . . . I think we are witnessing the breakdown of politics. I think even the world is seeing that. Civilization is collapsing.”

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Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones were wrong. Simple as that.

You simply have to deny huge chunks of what we're plainly told in the Gospels and the Epistles to hold to the common and illiterate reading of Apocryphal literature.
 
biscuit1953 said:
Why do you spiritualize prophecies which clearly teach that God would return the Jews to their homeland, never to be driven out again (Amos 9:14-15)?
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Because the Apostles do.

biscuit1953 said:
You can make the Bible mean anything you wish it to mean if you do that.
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No you can't. The Helenized Jews were told in no uncertain terms that for the New Testament to take effect, the Old Testament had to be canceled.

That doesn't mean unfulfilled. A canceled check is a debt that was paid.

This is what Jews coming home looks like:

1782393468348.webp



Not like this.
1782393497361.webp



Or this.
1782393535180.webp

biscuit1953 said:
“Not taking the Bible literally is when the interpretation is limited only by the imagination of the reader.
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No it doesn't.
 
Ekklesian said:
@Tarheel Baptist , jussoze yanoze, @biscuit1953 is my fave idolator.


Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones were wrong. Simple as that.

You simply have to deny huge chunks of what we're plainly told in the Gospels and the Epistles to hold to the common and illiterate reading of Apocryphal literature.
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The fact of the matter is there are many Reformed Christians who believe God is not through with Israel. You don’t have to be a Dispensationalist in theology to read many of the prophecies of Israel in the last days and tie them in with the miraculous regathering and establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948. This is a subject many Christians will continue to disagree on but hopefully with grace. One reason I started leaning toward Calvinism is because there are too many verses that if taken literally, destroys the idea that a dead man can do anything on his own to come to Christ. And just as there are things I disagree with Dispensationalism, the same applies to Calvinism. I consider myself a four point Calvinist because of the dogmatic nonsense that Christ didn’t die for the sins of the whole world. The apostles Paul and John both settled that argument in plain scripture. However, if someone still wants to believe that they are welcome to it.
 
JimKnox said:
The literal, physical, visible City of God in Revelation is a place where the Redeemed go IN and OUT.

Since when do the Redeemed ever go OUT of the Church if your hypothesis is correct?
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I read of people coming in, but not going out. Maybe you can point it out to me.
 
Ekklesian said:
Because the Apostles do.


No you can't. The Helenized Jews were told in no uncertain terms that for the New Testament to take effect, the Old Testament had to be canceled.

That doesn't mean unfulfilled. A canceled check is a debt that was paid.

This is what Jews coming home looks like:

View attachment 9202



Not like this.
View attachment 9203



Or this.
View attachment 9204


No it doesn't. This is what Jews coming home looks like:
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This interpretation is what it looks like when you make it a metaphor instead of believing the text as it is written.
 
Ekklesian said:
I read of people coming in, but not going out. Maybe you can point it out to me.
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Ya'know? I think age is catching up to me.
I could have sworn that I read "they go in and out"... but cannot find it right now.
I will keep looking but so far it appears I misspoke and thus far you are correct about this point.
Mea culpa.
 
Ekklesian said:
@Tarheel Baptist , jussoze yanoze, @biscuit1953 is my fave idolator.


Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones were wrong. Simple as that.

You simply have to deny huge chunks of what we're plainly told in the Gospels and the Epistles to hold to the common and illiterate reading of Apocryphal literature.
Click to expand...
We get it…anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
You’re brilliant.
We’re impressed.
You hate Jooooooosssssss…but not as much as you hate Premills.

Heil Ekk!
 
Ekklesian said:
I read of people coming in, but not going out. Maybe you can point it out to me.
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...(continued)
The exact words in that exact order do not appear in that passage. In this sense, I misspoke and you would be correct if and only if the people outside of the City were constantly being redeemed throughout eternity and the City is eternally expanding  and they were eternally entering the City.

But this cannot be, because the same chapter gives us a definite measurement of the physical dimensions of its walls. Those walls do not expand for eternity. If they did then the given physical measurements have no meaning at all and this description is absurd.

Additionally, the gates of this City never close which indicates the freedom to go in and out.

Therefore, the exact phrase does not appear in the passage but the concept is definitely present.

Much like the concept of the Trinity is not expressly stated but the concept is not negated by its absence.
 
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