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christundivided
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.tim said:
Or... he might be tainted by the experience. You never know. It works both ways.
Or... he might be tainted by the experience. You never know. It works both ways.
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mamamia said:
With wisdom.
What is the godly way for a full-time pastor to use his money? What is the godly way for a Christian in a secular vocation to use his money? Unless the missionary is a Jesuit who has taken a vow of poverty, there are no "special" rules for them that don't apply to anyone else.
If I were a missionary with no other means of support than my church, and it was being maintained at a subsistence level merely because someone at my sending church thought that missionaries shouldn't have superfluous assets for savings or investments, I would find another vocation. Not because the kingdom of God isn't important, but because my family comes first and my ability to provide for them is being crippled. I am being made into a denier of the faith and an unbeliever (1 Tim. 5:8).
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mamamia said:
No, but it is not always possible. As has already been mentioned, it might be illegal for missionaries to obtain a job. Or, if the missionaries are serving in a remote or impoverished area, there might be no work available.
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christundivided
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Ransom said:
I would disagree. They are associated with the office of a bishop. As such, they are held to a higher standard. A leaders standard. An "open and read of all men" standard. Have you read those words before?
I would think.... it would be honest of a person/missionary to share with those who support them/him.... The living they receive from donations of those who support them. At least, some type of annual disclosure of funding.
I would say this would go a long way towards avoiding abuses of support.
My guess is most of the posters here have never taken a missions trip to the Philippines, Haiti or Mexico. Most if not all the missionaries live well below the standard of living in the U.S. Some live it what we would call poverty. I have not had the opportunity to travel to the continent of Africa or South America but my guess is those missionaries living conditions are not much better.
I would guess for every missionary who lives in excess there are 10 who have sacrificed all for the cause of Christ. I suggest a mission trip or too might be in order before you pass judgment on these servants of God.
I know 5 missionaries who are currently serving in the Philippines & I would not switch lifestyles with any of them.
I would guess for every missionary who lives in excess there are 10 who have sacrificed all for the cause of Christ. I suggest a mission trip or too might be in order before you pass judgment on these servants of God.
I know 5 missionaries who are currently serving in the Philippines & I would not switch lifestyles with any of them.
When I got out of college I went to a missionary board yearly training session. It was mostly a crash course on missions and being taken on by their board. In this particular missionary board they would set your support level that you were to raise for your particular field. A percentage of your support was automatically taken and invested in some type of retirement fund.
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christundivided said:
. . . he said, surprising no one.
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christundivided
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sword said:
No one is passing judgement on good missionaries.... Just the process.
christundivided said:
What process would you propose in this day and age?
How do you propose missionaries get to the field & how would they support themselves if they are not allowed to work.
I have an idea, what if we have them travel from church to church begging churches to support them as they sell everything & leave the country they love. Then when they get there they can start with nothing & hope the churches keep their commitments to support them 6000 miles from home. Then we could have preachers send letters threatening to withdrawal support if they don't do everything just the way they want them too.
If the mission field is such a great excessive lifestyle, why are missionaries coming home at record rates.
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christundivided
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Only if Paul had of been so lucky as to have deputation support....or a telephone and car to solicite donations....... I don't know how he made it.....
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My church takes care of our missionaries I'm just guessing we have about 30 and we pay them about 900.00 a month. I need to say also that my church is very giving and our pastor is very wise. Our church has a heart for missions. I have a lot of respect for missionaries....try leaving everything you have and go somewhere those decisions separate you from a lot. My cousin was in Romania for 10 years if you ask his children would they go back they would be packed and on a flight tonight.
christundivided said:
What are you proposing?
None of us live like Paul did, why should missionaries.
Just because Paul did not receive checks in the mail does not mean he did not get support from churches. In Romans 16 & other places Paul thanks many who supported him.
All men in the bible were expected to hone a skilled trade per 2Timothy. Jesus was a Carpenter, Apostle Paul, the Greatest Missionary was a Tentmaker, Luke a Physician, Peter a fisherman, etc..MEN who didn't support themselves and/or families were akin to an infidel. The Greek word translated "infidel" is apistos, meaning "faithless, unbelieving, without faith." . So basically, an unbeliever. And sadly, this is the perfect example.
When "wages" are justified in the Bible, it's discouraged. Paul instructs it's in the best interest of the sheep not to go there. He did to some extent.. but again, we know he worked as a Tentmaker also. So he didn't make saving souls an occupation. He wasn't greed filled.
Churches are ran by a plurality of Elders, Bishops, pastors, overseers, etc.. so not just one person. So no one person would have too many hours in working for church so the wages even if paid, wouldn't be much. That's because most christian men work if they can because it's obedience to Christ. His word. It's self respect. It keeps them from being viewed as an unsaved person. So if one Elder or Pastor out of the 5 who run a church becomes unemployed, then it's fine to offer a wage as the others are self supporting. All men need to be self supporting, not rely on others for 100% as a way of life. I would never consider taking money from my Church unless I needed the money.
IN scripture, all men had a trade. They honed a skill so any "wages" are just small monetary supplements anyhow... to add to their already earned wages.. in order to make ends meet. Heck how much does a Tent cost? They never lived beyond their means as many expect to today. If my church gave me a handout or "wages" I'd be so appreciative!! What a wonderful thing they did for me. I couldn't imagine coming back with..ok now can you buy me property and/or help my nest egg? Geeze Louise, it's amazing the dollar size in some people's eyes.
Begging is not cool. Handouts as a way of life are not Cool. No nest egg for this rotten egg.
When "wages" are justified in the Bible, it's discouraged. Paul instructs it's in the best interest of the sheep not to go there. He did to some extent.. but again, we know he worked as a Tentmaker also. So he didn't make saving souls an occupation. He wasn't greed filled.
Churches are ran by a plurality of Elders, Bishops, pastors, overseers, etc.. so not just one person. So no one person would have too many hours in working for church so the wages even if paid, wouldn't be much. That's because most christian men work if they can because it's obedience to Christ. His word. It's self respect. It keeps them from being viewed as an unsaved person. So if one Elder or Pastor out of the 5 who run a church becomes unemployed, then it's fine to offer a wage as the others are self supporting. All men need to be self supporting, not rely on others for 100% as a way of life. I would never consider taking money from my Church unless I needed the money.
IN scripture, all men had a trade. They honed a skill so any "wages" are just small monetary supplements anyhow... to add to their already earned wages.. in order to make ends meet. Heck how much does a Tent cost? They never lived beyond their means as many expect to today. If my church gave me a handout or "wages" I'd be so appreciative!! What a wonderful thing they did for me. I couldn't imagine coming back with..ok now can you buy me property and/or help my nest egg? Geeze Louise, it's amazing the dollar size in some people's eyes.
Begging is not cool. Handouts as a way of life are not Cool. No nest egg for this rotten egg.
I cannot find your translation from above but it doesn't say Elders are expected to be Paid. It's the opposite, actually.tim said:
Per Paul's instruction upon how church is to operate, Barnabus and Paul appointed multiple Elders in various cities to run the churches. There is no such thing as one Pastor running a church while taking a salary...all while the Elders assist doing their limited amount of work for free. It's not a pyramid scheme with one Guy called Pastor running the show, while his helpers help for free.They are all equally worthy of honor, moreso those that teach and preach. But That seems very typical in churches now. It's just a reminder of how narrow the road to life really is, and how few will find it.
Obviously the flock can't afford to pay all the Church leaders which wouldn've allready been appointed by other Leaders (like Barnabus and Paul's example)
Saving Souls is not a business venture.
King James Bible
1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine
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christundivided
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sword said:
I seem to remember that Paul worked with his own hands to support himself. Where do you think I got that from?
If possible, Missionaries should support themselves through local jobs. Once the local church gets on its feet..... the local church should support the work. Of course this would put a lot of mission boards out of business. This will save a lot of money. That money could go to support missionaries that actually need support.
Are you a missionary kid?
1 Corinthians 9: 4-14 and continue in reading in 1 Timothy 5: 17-18..... Paul was crystal clear about the church supporting the pastor...not everyone was required to go get a trade as some have inferred
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ChuckBob
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Southern Baptists don't have these problems. They're paid a salary by the mission board and also have retirement benefits. That lets them concentrate on their job.
ChuckBob
ChuckBob