Missionaries Buying Property

[sword]

Only if Paul had of been so lucky as to have deputation support....or a telephone and car to solicite donations....... I don't know how he made it.....

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

What are you proposing?

None of us live like Paul did, why should missionaries.

Just because Paul did not receive checks in the mail does not mean he did not get support from churches. In Romans 16 & other places Paul thanks many who supported him.

I seem to remember that Paul worked with his own hands to support himself. Where do you think I got that from?

If possible, Missionaries should support themselves through local jobs. Once the local church gets on its feet..... the local church should support the work. Of course this would put a lot of mission boards out of business. This will save a lot of money. That money could go to support missionaries that actually need support.

Question: Are you a missionary kid?

Answer: No, I have just been on enough mission trips to know the conditions many missionaries live under.

Most of the countries, where I know missionaries, have a very low standard of living & the average native makes under $400 American per month.

My guess is you have not visited many missionaries on the field. My guess is you also give very little to missions since you seem to think they should be on their own.

Does your church support their pastor or do you expect him to be self supporting?

 

[subllibrm]

Southern Baptists don't have these problems. They're paid a salary by the mission board and also have retirement benefits. That lets them concentrate on their job.

ChuckBob

Yup...Cooperative Program, puts over 5000 fully supported missionaries in over 115 countries.

My wife and I have applied for a full time position at a bible camp. All the staff is paid via the missionary support model. Once we are approved (appointed/deputized) we will start the process. The CP sounds great from our perspective!  Of course we aren't SBC nor is the camp (IFCA modeled independent organization). We will have to do it the road rubber and shoe leather way. 

Actually, we are looking forward to the opportunity to tell the story or how God has directed and blessed the camp ministry. One small but critical nugget; everything is paid for with no debt ever! That is a fun story(s) to tell. Each step. Each building. Each program expansion. Prayed for and paid for. The founder used George Mueller as the model. It still works.

 

[christundivided]

1 Corinthians 9: 4-14 and continue in reading in 1 Timothy 5: 17-18..... Paul was crystal clear about the church supporting the pastor...not everyone was required to go get a trade as some have inferred

Simple question.... Did you work a secular job till your church could support you full time?

If so, did you preach on 1 Corinthians 9:4-14 and 1 Timothy 5:17-18?

We've had this discussion before. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that teaches every bishop of every "Tom, Dick and Harry" church in existence should draw a "salary". Nothing. It doesn't exist.

The apostles had the God given authority to put off working.... YET, Paul clearly declared that he had not USED this power nor demanded he be treated the same.

This is far cry from teaching that all churches should have a full time, salaried pastor.

In like manner, I have already said..... that local congregations on the mission field..... SHOULD SUPPORT THEIR PASTOR if that is what they choose. The "deputation should end". Often times, this is not what happens.... and you know it.

 

[.tim]

1 Corinthians 9: 4-14 and continue in reading in 1 Timothy 5: 17-18..... Paul was crystal clear about the church supporting the pastor...not everyone was required to go get a trade as some have inferred

Simple question.... Did you work a secular job till your church could support you full time?

If so, did you preach on 1 Corinthians 9:4-14 and 1 Timothy 5:17-18?

We've had this discussion before. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that teaches every bishop of every "Tom, Dick and Harry" church in existence should draw a "salary". Nothing. It doesn't exist.

The apostles had the God given authority to put off working.... YET, Paul clearly declared that he had not USED this power nor demanded he be treated the same.

This is far cry from teaching that all churches should have a full time, salaried pastor.

In like manner, I have already said..... that local congregations on the mission field..... SHOULD SUPPORT THEIR PASTOR if that is what they choose. The "deputation should end". Often times, this is not what happens.... and you know it.

We don't trade for goods anymore also.

My general observation is that a good pastor doesn't have time for a full time job! Plus, should he worry about making ends meet all while ministering to the complex needs of this generation?

Any responsible, thankful, congregation should count is a joy to support their pastor.

Did Paul worry about a mortgage? Did he pay for a private Christian Education for his child? Did he need health care? Did he drive a car, fill it with gas, repair it?

Face it - in 2014 you need a salary to live in America.

 

[christundivided]

Answer: No, I have just been on enough mission trips to know the conditions many missionaries live under.

Most of the countries, where I know missionaries, have a very low standard of living & the average native makes under $400 American per month.

Then why do you expect a immigrant pastor/missionary to come in and live differently? Would you call that insulting to those they are trying to win to God?

My guess is you have not visited many missionaries on the field. My guess is you also give very little to missions since you seem to think they should be on their own.

I have personally supported missionaries directly in my life. Some of the greatest men I have ever know were missionaries. I've been rather fond of Dr. Raymond Sorrells over the years. I knew him before he every claimed to be a "Dr.". I knew him when he daily lived in fear of his life among the savages in Papua New Guinea... back when Papua New Guinea was a much harder place to establish than today.

Does your church support their pastor or do you expect him to be self supporting?

I've said for years that pastors have no right to demand a salary based on the Scriptures. No right at all. I have said for years that the average pastor should get a job and stop lying about the "tithe" he is taking from his members...... From many of them that probably can't afford it themselves. The "pastor" business is full of crocks and thieves.

Your very Lord told his disciples "freely ye have recieved, freely give". Peter talked of men making "merchandise" of the saints.

Having said that.... If a church has the ability to support a pastor full time.... without preaching the tithe..... without demanding money from members that can't afford to give.... then let them hire a man full time. Just don't try to tell me that God demands they be paid a full time salary.

Which in reality... is what deputation is.

 

[christundivided]

We don't trade for goods anymore also.

Sure we do. Even more so on the mission field.

My general observation is that a good pastor doesn't have time for a full time job! Plus, should he worry about making ends meet all while ministering to the complex needs of this generation?

One of the reasons for this is the "pastorate" has become something it should have never become. Even so, good pastors do have time for a full time job.

Any responsible, thankful, congregation should count is a joy to support their pastor.

I've heard more pastor butt kissing in my life than I care to have heard. Why don't they have a "member appreciation" day every month? Pastors have become whimps that think they OWED something from "THEIR" members.

Did Paul worry about a mortgage? Did he pay for a private Christian Education for his child? Did he need health care? Did he drive a car, fill it with gas, repair it?

Face it - in 2014 you need a salary to live in America.

Only in America would hear that crap. The "pastor" can do this through having a "job". I've known many a pastor that worked a full time job and lead their church for 30 plus years. Granted, you don't find many of them today.

There are always exceptions, but don't pretend corruption is rampant among "pastors" today.

 

[christundivided]

Southern Baptists don't have these problems. They're paid a salary by the mission board and also have retirement benefits. That lets them concentrate on their job.

ChuckBob

Oh yeah... Its big business.

What do the board members receive?

 

[.tim]

We don't trade for goods anymore also.

Sure we do. Even more so on the mission field.

My general observation is that a good pastor doesn't have time for a full time job! Plus, should he worry about making ends meet all while ministering to the complex needs of this generation?

One of the reasons for this is the "pastorate" has become something it should have never become. Even so, good pastors do have time for a full time job.

Any responsible, thankful, congregation should count is a joy to support their pastor.

I've heard more pastor butt kissing in my life than I care to have heard. Why don't they have a "member appreciation" day every month? Pastors have become whimps that think they OWED something from "THEIR" members.

Did Paul worry about a mortgage? Did he pay for a private Christian Education for his child? Did he need health care? Did he drive a car, fill it with gas, repair it?

Face it - in 2014 you need a salary to live in America.

Only in America would hear that crap. The "pastor" can do this through having a "job". I've known many a pastor that worked a full time job and lead their church for 30 plus years. Granted, you don't find many of them today.

There are always exceptions, but don't pretend corruption is rampant among "pastors" today.

You seem to have a deep rooted anger or something.

 

[christundivided]

We don't trade for goods anymore also.

Sure we do. Even more so on the mission field.

My general observation is that a good pastor doesn't have time for a full time job! Plus, should he worry about making ends meet all while ministering to the complex needs of this generation?

One of the reasons for this is the "pastorate" has become something it should have never become. Even so, good pastors do have time for a full time job.

Any responsible, thankful, congregation should count is a joy to support their pastor.

I've heard more pastor butt kissing in my life than I care to have heard. Why don't they have a "member appreciation" day every month? Pastors have become wimps that think they OWED something from "THEIR" members.

Did Paul worry about a mortgage? Did he pay for a private Christian Education for his child? Did he need health care? Did he drive a car, fill it with gas, repair it?

Face it - in 2014 you need a salary to live in America.

Only in America would hear that crap. The "pastor" can do this through having a "job". I've known many a pastor that worked a full time job and lead their church for 30 plus years. Granted, you don't find many of them today.

There are always exceptions, but don't pretend corruption is rampant among "pastors" today.

You seem to have a deep rooted anger or something.

Not really. I do hate a lie. Everyone should.....

I know what the truth is.... I don't have to accept a lie.

 

[kaba]

A good Pastor DOESNT have time for a full time job.  I believe a Pastor is called in the ministry, but it is also a job! They need to support their family and if they had to rely on the good members to just give them money, they would starve! I understand if a church can not support a full time Pastor, he would then need to get a secular job to supplement his income. But to say a Pastor should not take a salary is just insipid!!!

I see nothing wrong in missionaries thinking ahead for their future. Yes the Lord will take care of them. But he also gave them a brain...and they need to use it.

 

[.tim]

We don't trade for goods anymore also.

Sure we do. Even more so on the mission field.

My general observation is that a good pastor doesn't have time for a full time job! Plus, should he worry about making ends meet all while ministering to the complex needs of this generation?

One of the reasons for this is the "pastorate" has become something it should have never become. Even so, good pastors do have time for a full time job.

Any responsible, thankful, congregation should count is a joy to support their pastor.

I've heard more pastor butt kissing in my life than I care to have heard. Why don't they have a "member appreciation" day every month? Pastors have become wimps that think they OWED something from "THEIR" members.

Did Paul worry about a mortgage? Did he pay for a private Christian Education for his child? Did he need health care? Did he drive a car, fill it with gas, repair it?

Face it - in 2014 you need a salary to live in America.

Only in America would hear that crap. The "pastor" can do this through having a "job". I've known many a pastor that worked a full time job and lead their church for 30 plus years. Granted, you don't find many of them today.

There are always exceptions, but don't pretend corruption is rampant among "pastors" today.

You seem to have a deep rooted anger or something.

Not really. I do hate a lie. Everyone should.....

I know what the truth is.... I don't have to accept a lie.

You assume you know what the truth is. Everyone has faults.

 

[christundivided]

A good Pastor DOESNT have time for a full time job.  I believe a Pastor is called in the ministry, but it is also a job! They need to support their family and if they had to rely on the good members to just give them money, they would starve! I understand if a church can not support a full time Pastor, he would then need to get a secular job to supplement his income. But to say a Pastor should not take a salary is just insipid!!!

I see nothing wrong in missionaries thinking ahead for their future. Yes the Lord will take care of them. But he also gave them a brain...and they need to use it.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence for what you're saying?.... or do you just go by what you feel?

1Co 9:15  But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
1Co 9:16  For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18  What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

 

[.tim]

A good Pastor DOESNT have time for a full time job.  I believe a Pastor is called in the ministry, but it is also a job! They need to support their family and if they had to rely on the good members to just give them money, they would starve! I understand if a church can not support a full time Pastor, he would then need to get a secular job to supplement his income. But to say a Pastor should not take a salary is just insipid!!!

I see nothing wrong in missionaries thinking ahead for their future. Yes the Lord will take care of them. But he also gave them a brain...and they need to use it.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence for what you're saying?.... or do you just go by what you feel?

1Co 9:15  But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
1Co 9:16  For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18  What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

How is paying the pastor a salary and charging for the gospel the same thing? My pastor never asks for money in order to provide salvation.

 

[christundivided]

A good Pastor DOESNT have time for a full time job.  I believe a Pastor is called in the ministry, but it is also a job! They need to support their family and if they had to rely on the good members to just give them money, they would starve! I understand if a church can not support a full time Pastor, he would then need to get a secular job to supplement his income. But to say a Pastor should not take a salary is just insipid!!!

I see nothing wrong in missionaries thinking ahead for their future. Yes the Lord will take care of them. But he also gave them a brain...and they need to use it.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence for what you're saying?.... or do you just go by what you feel?

1Co 9:15  But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
1Co 9:16  For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18  What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

How is paying the pastor a salary and charging for the gospel the same thing? My pastor never asks for money in order to provide salvation.

Would you pastor preach the Gospel to your church if they didn't pay him?

By the way.... why do you think Paul said it?

 

[.tim]

A good Pastor DOESNT have time for a full time job.  I believe a Pastor is called in the ministry, but it is also a job! They need to support their family and if they had to rely on the good members to just give them money, they would starve! I understand if a church can not support a full time Pastor, he would then need to get a secular job to supplement his income. But to say a Pastor should not take a salary is just insipid!!!

I see nothing wrong in missionaries thinking ahead for their future. Yes the Lord will take care of them. But he also gave them a brain...and they need to use it.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence for what you're saying?.... or do you just go by what you feel?

1Co 9:15  But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
1Co 9:16  For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18  What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

How is paying the pastor a salary and charging for the gospel the same thing? My pastor never asks for money in order to provide salvation.

Would you pastor preach the Gospel to your church if they didn't pay him?

By the way.... why do you think Paul said it?

My pastor worked a full time job until the Church voted to give him a salary.

By preaching the gospel, freely, the apostle showed that he acted from principles of zeal and love, and thus enjoyed much comfort and hope in his soul. (Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary)

 

[christundivided]

A good Pastor DOESNT have time for a full time job.  I believe a Pastor is called in the ministry, but it is also a job! They need to support their family and if they had to rely on the good members to just give them money, they would starve! I understand if a church can not support a full time Pastor, he would then need to get a secular job to supplement his income. But to say a Pastor should not take a salary is just insipid!!!

I see nothing wrong in missionaries thinking ahead for their future. Yes the Lord will take care of them. But he also gave them a brain...and they need to use it.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence for what you're saying?.... or do you just go by what you feel?

1Co 9:15  But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
1Co 9:16  For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18  What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

How is paying the pastor a salary and charging for the gospel the same thing? My pastor never asks for money in order to provide salvation.

Would you pastor preach the Gospel to your church if they didn't pay him?

By the way.... why do you think Paul said it?

My pastor worked a full time job until the Church voted to give him a salary.

By preaching the gospel, freely, the apostle showed that he acted from principles of zeal and love, and thus enjoyed much comfort and hope in his soul. (Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary)

So... how is this in disagreement with what I said?

 

[T-Bone]

1 Corinthians 9: 4-14 and continue in reading in 1 Timothy 5: 17-18..... Paul was crystal clear about the church supporting the pastor...not everyone was required to go get a trade as some have inferred

Simple question.... Did you work a secular job till your church could support you full time?

If so, did you preach on 1 Corinthians 9:4-14 and 1 Timothy 5:17-18?

We've had this discussion before. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that teaches every bishop of every "Tom, Dick and Harry" church in existence should draw a "salary". Nothing. It doesn't exist.

The apostles had the God given authority to put off working.... YET, Paul clearly declared that he had not USED this power nor demanded he be treated the same.

This is far cry from teaching that all churches should have a full time, salaried pastor.

In like manner, I have already said..... that local congregations on the mission field..... SHOULD SUPPORT THEIR PASTOR if that is what they choose. The "deputation should end". Often times, this is not what happens.... and you know it.

Sure I work another job while in the ministry when the church was smaller or unable to support our family.  Though they always supported our family in many ways.  I have preached the whole counsel of God in all my 34 years of ministry, as best I could at the different stages of my growth as a pastor.  I preached many times and many places without compensation...and I would still today if the church chose or could not fully support my family.  That being said the Apostle's words are clear about the church supporting those who minister in the word.  I know this doesn't look the same in all cases...but the principle is the same across the board.  I personally know very few who get rich out of the ministry.  The deputation system is not something we use...as the IFB churches do, we use the Cooperative Program.

 

[.tim]

A good Pastor DOESNT have time for a full time job.  I believe a Pastor is called in the ministry, but it is also a job! They need to support their family and if they had to rely on the good members to just give them money, they would starve! I understand if a church can not support a full time Pastor, he would then need to get a secular job to supplement his income. But to say a Pastor should not take a salary is just insipid!!!

I see nothing wrong in missionaries thinking ahead for their future. Yes the Lord will take care of them. But he also gave them a brain...and they need to use it.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence for what you're saying?.... or do you just go by what you feel?

1Co 9:15  But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
1Co 9:16  For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18  What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

How is paying the pastor a salary and charging for the gospel the same thing? My pastor never asks for money in order to provide salvation.

Would you pastor preach the Gospel to your church if they didn't pay him?

By the way.... why do you think Paul said it?

My pastor worked a full time job until the Church voted to give him a salary.

By preaching the gospel, freely, the apostle showed that he acted from principles of zeal and love, and thus enjoyed much comfort and hope in his soul. (Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary)

So... how is this in disagreement with what I said?

Should our personal comfort and hope be the same as the Apostle Paul's?

His zeal and love was expressed differently. We are all different.

Does the Bible FORBID a pastor to accept a salary?

 

[christundivided]

1 Corinthians 9: 4-14 and continue in reading in 1 Timothy 5: 17-18..... Paul was crystal clear about the church supporting the pastor...not everyone was required to go get a trade as some have inferred

Simple question.... Did you work a secular job till your church could support you full time?

If so, did you preach on 1 Corinthians 9:4-14 and 1 Timothy 5:17-18?

We've had this discussion before. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that teaches every bishop of every "Tom, Dick and Harry" church in existence should draw a "salary". Nothing. It doesn't exist.

The apostles had the God given authority to put off working.... YET, Paul clearly declared that he had not USED this power nor demanded he be treated the same.

This is far cry from teaching that all churches should have a full time, salaried pastor.

In like manner, I have already said..... that local congregations on the mission field..... SHOULD SUPPORT THEIR PASTOR if that is what they choose. The "deputation should end". Often times, this is not what happens.... and you know it.

Sure I work another job while in the ministry when the church was smaller or unable to support our family.  Though they always supported our family in many ways.  I have preached the whole counsel of God in all my 34 years of ministry, as best I could at the different stages of my growth as a pastor.  I preached many times and many places without compensation...and I would still today if the church chose or could not fully support my family.  That being said the Apostle's words are clear about the church supporting those who minister in the word.  I know this doesn't look the same in all cases...but the principle is the same across the board.  I personally know very few who get rich out of the ministry.  The deputation system is not something we use...as the IFB churches do, we use the Cooperative Program.

Brother, I know you're a good pastor. You know I feel strongly about this and I'm not trying to bash those who get paid while serving God.

There is just a lot of corruption in such things. I don't think we can ignore it.

I think it is safe to say that Paul saw such teachings being abused during his time. His example is the perfect example.

 

[christundivided]

Does the Bible FORBID a pastor to accept a salary?

No..... Nor does it demand it.