Modesty, immodesty, men and women....

aleshanee said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
aleshanee said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
I have answered many of those questions already on the thread.
Yet again, how a woman dresses for modesty is subjective.
Men are ALWAYS responsible for their thoughts and actions.
And, I'm for modesty for all genders....not aware that Scripture addressed modesty or immodesty in men's apparel.
Perhaps the Holy Spirit didn't consider a reaction to Xers when He inspired the Scripture.
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no... the Holy Spirit considered everything when He inspired the Scriptures.... including actions and reactions to Xers........ the question is whether or not He inspired the Xers opinions...... and that... it seems........ might be the biggest point of contention.......  ;)
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That would only be a point of contention if one of us affirmed the 'Xer position'...which I define as one or more of these:
Blame the woman for the man's sin.
Have a written/definitive standard of 'proper dress'.
Condemn any person who disagrees with the above.

I don't agree with those in any way, shape or form.
I assumed you didn't either.
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i don;t agree with any of those Xers positions.....  ???....... i apologize for misreading and assuming you did......  :-\ ........ maybe it was the intensity with which you opened this thread that gave me that wrong impression.......  ??? ............. sorry.... :-\....... can i get into my high endurance speedo with the wet suit top and go surfing now?....... there is a 2 foot south swell coming in and north east trades leaving glassy 1 to 3 foot faces with super long hang times....... it;s supposed to get bigger later..... most likely out of my league...... so now;s the time to hit the breaks if i;m going to do it....... 8)

i hope you know that even though we sometimes disagree here i still consider us friends....... :) ........  aloha and have an awesome weekend....
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No problem!  :)
My purpose in this thread was to point out that just because some abuse and misuse the issue of modesty, that doesn't negate the truth behind the principle.

There has been an ongoing discussion about modesty in the evangelical community for awhile now.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
aleshanee said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
Understanding the point of contention seems to be lacking on my part.
I have repeatedly said I don't believe men are absolved from responsibility for their actions, never, ever!
I have repeatedly said the standard is subjective, depending on a number of factors.
That said and ceded...you have already agreed that it is possible for a woman to dress 'immodestly'.
So, we basically agree on this issue.
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we agree in essence.... but i;m still not sure we agree in substance.....  :-\ ............ do you believe that "immodest" is always equivalent to "the attire of a harlot"..? ..... or that it should be labelled as such? ......... .. the point of contention is not whether either of us believe it is possible for a young woman to dress immodestly....... but rather just where exactly that line should be drawn..... and whether actions play any part on any specific manner of dress being judged as immodest or not...at one specific time as opposed to another... ...

but while we are at it........ do you believe it is possible for a young man to dress immodestly?......do you believe it is just as important for young men to be covered in appropriate places and at appropriate times as it is for a young woman?.....

there are times in my opinion when what i consider to be immodest... for either gender... is in reality just dressing stupid.... (i;ve given examples of those before)...... and other times when what i see as anothers attempt to go overboard with modesty in their dress to be equally stupid........ even dangerous.........there is a specific time and place for specific things .......... modesty is not a black and white issue.......



i have an idea....... maybe we should start a poll or survey and list specific things item by item ... situation by situation....and let people vote on whether they think those items or situations are immodest in or of themselves..... it might not solve any points of contentions..... but at least we would know where and what those points of contention are..... 8)
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I have answered many of those questions already on the thread.
Yet again, how a woman dresses for modesty is subjective.
Men are ALWAYS responsible for their thoughts and actions.
And, I'm for modesty for all genders....not aware that Scripture addressed modesty or immodesty in men's apparel.
Perhaps the Holy Spirit didn't consider a reaction to Xers when He inspired the Scripture.
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Directly? No, but indirectly or inferred, yes.

Genesis 2:25  And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Exodus 28:42  And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
Leviticus, all over the place re don't uncover men's nakedness (in context, a relative, but I already said inferred not stated)
John 21:7  Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
Luke 8:35  Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

I repeat, inferred, not stated. If physical nakedness was not an issue, what was the big deal in John 21:7? I tend to use two words to differentiate two thoughts. Peter was naked, not nude. Peter was caught in his underwear, not nude.
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I don't propose that public nakedness is profitable or permissible for men, but referencing nakedness in men is a long way from addressing the subject!

From what I'm told, men are 'aroused' visually, women not so much.
I believe the first statement to be true....assume the second one is as well, but can't be certain!  :)
 
In this entire thread, I have not seen this perspective:

Mothers teaching their daughters modesty.  Or Elder Women teaching Younger Women modesty.

I bring to you Titus 2:3-5:  The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

No, these verses do not mention modesty per se, but I do believe that modesty would have been covered in the context of the teaching.

This is what I think is missing in our churches...the teaching of modesty.  Hey, I'm old...so my thoughts on modesty are not the same as some teen or 20-30 year old person.  I get that...but I also know this...my son's (ex) girlfriend used to sporadically attend church.  I never knew what we would see...too high, too low or too tight, or some such combination.  My mom took her shopping a few times.  They bought a few outfits.  Did my mom or I think those outfits were totally appropriate?  No.  But were they were head and shoulders above any of her other outfits.  And compared to the outfits worn by other girls of her age in the Sunday morning service, she was quite demure. 

And that was the rub.  I remember a certain Sunday when the granddaughter of a deacon, the daughter of a long-time member, a graduate of our school wore a skirt so short that she had to  pull it down every time she stood up during the service!  Go to the OP and see the description of a harlot and you will visualize the length of that skirt!  That skirt was so short that she had to pull it down to cover her undergarments.

It's awfully hard to teach modesty when long time members of the church dress like harlots.

     


 
I believe it is possible for both sexes to be modest or immodest.  Most of the time, the issue is one of the heart.  Sometimes, it is ignorance or even body type.  A female relative of mine had someone tell her she was being immodest when she was 8 months pregnant and having a hard time finding any clothes that fit.  They thought her top was too tight.  The truth was that everything at that moment was too tight because she was eight months pregnant.  As modesty is somewhat subjective, the biblical principle should be taught and parents should teach their children regarding it.  I also believe husbands and wives need to determine together what they will wear and accept.  It is getting harder and harder to find modest clothing, especially for little girls like mine are.  I personally think it is immodest to write sexually suggestive words on children's clothing, but that seems to be a fad nowadays.  We do buy that type of clothing, or clothing that glorifies the latest teen crush, etc.  That limits your choices right there. 
 
aleshanee said:
i touched on it in post # 54.... that young women need to be taught to dress modestly...... :-\....... .. but i give up......... fine.. you guys win....  :-\.... but only as far as the mainland ifb world is concerned..... i spent the first 10 years of my life with real prostitutes and harlots ... so i actually know quite a bit about how they dress...and also how they act...... but if in the mind of the ifb world on the mainland .. dressing immodestly always equals dressing like a harlot... then so be it... :(... just one more reason i;m happy i don;t live there.......


but for the record...... yes.. i wear udt style shorts with tank tops all over this lsland .... as well as pants and t-shirts sometimes. ....spandex tights for bicycling....  and various styles of swimsuits and wet suit tops for surfing .. spearfishing and swimming... including bikinis on occasions....i even wear short dresses on occasion when i go out to dance at parties with my room mates and other female friends....... here in the islands it;s called dressing appropriately for the occasion....

and speaking of which..... when i go to church i wear very nice dresses that go at least to the knee and have very modest cuts by everyones standards......but according to the non-ifb "freebirds" here that "dressing up for church" thing made me comparable  to the pagans in previous millenia  ... i told them that was fine then if it;s what they wanted to believe.... and now if all the rest of this makes me something bad or immodest in the ifb eyes then i guess that;s fine too...... . can;t please everybody.......but i can assure you none of that makes me any of those things in the eyes of the people who know me or live with me here..... and certainly not in the eyes of those who go to church with me.....

like i said in the beginning of all this...... this is a different place with a very different culture....... half way around the world from some of you...... but whatever..... 
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For the record, I don't think that a female who dresses slightly immodest is dressing like a harlot.  And you are correct, the intent of the woman in the Proverbs passage is extremely important to the essence of the warning and meaning of that passage.  Comparison of somebody wearing bikers shorts to a harlot is inappropriate, which is why I said earlier that caution, precision, and discretion is required when discussing this subject, so as not to offend.  I know what you are speaking of, because just such an infortunate situation occurred under a previous pastor I had, and a sweet, sweet woman of God left the church due to such an inappropriate usage of terms.  To be fair, she shouldn't have left without trying to work through the misunderstanding, but I understand why she was offended at the "pants = harlot" analogy.
 
aleshanee said:
i touched on it in post # 54.... that young women need to be taught to dress modestly...... :-\....... .. but i give up......... fine.. you guys win....  :-\.... but only as far as the mainland ifb world is concerned..... i spent the first 10 years of my life with real prostitutes and harlots ... so i actually know quite a bit about how they dress...and also how they act...... but if in the mind of the ifb world on the mainland .. dressing immodestly always equals dressing like a harlot... then so be it... :(... just one more reason i;m happy i don;t live there.......


but for the record...... yes.. i wear udt style shorts with tank tops all over this lsland .... as well as pants and t-shirts sometimes. ....spandex tights for bicycling....  and various styles of swimsuits and wet suit tops for surfing .. spearfishing and swimming... including bikinis on occasions....i even wear short dresses on occasion when i go out to dance at parties with my room mates and other female friends....... here in the islands it;s called dressing appropriately for the occasion....

and speaking of which..... when i go to church i wear very nice dresses that go at least to the knee and have very modest cuts by everyones standards......but according to the non-ifb "freebirds" here that "dressing up for church" thing made me comparable  to the pagans in previous millenia  ... i told them that was fine then if it;s what they wanted to believe.... and now if all the rest of this makes me something bad or immodest in the ifb eyes then i guess that;s fine too...... . can;t please everybody.......but i can assure you none of that makes me any of those things in the eyes of the people who know me or live with me here..... and certainly not in the eyes of those who go to church with me.....

like i said in the beginning of all this...... this is a different place with a very different culture....... half way around the world from some of you...... but whatever..... 
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'Modesty' is subjective.
I don't assume because you wear shorts or short skits you are immodest and certainly don't think you dress like a harlot. My daughters also regularly wear shorts and on occasion have worn dresses I deemed too short....but I'm their Dad!  :)
 
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