Mrs. Hyles and the kids

[prophet]

This thread is interesting.  OP states that there are different opinions in the immediate family as to what JH was like, or at least, they each have a different public testimony as to what home life was like. 

Next, people all pile on with which of the kids are correct and which is wrong and why the poster believes.......

Seems as though the same old argument is taking place.  Whatever paradigm one has, he tries to force the story to fit his view.  Typically, until you are willing to see the other viewpoint, you will never see clearly.  Clouded vision produces clouded judgment which cannot be trusted.

With all due respect, this is what I find maddening.  We are not talking JUST about what "home life was like" for the Hyleses.  We are not talking about "viewpoints."  It's not like a discussion of whether the estate tax is good for the economy or whether a vegetarian diet will produce better overall health.  Either Hyles had inappropriate relationship(s) with women not his wife or he didn't.  Either he knew/hid Dave's stuff or he didn't.  "Viewpoints" are not relevant to those issues, facts are.

It seems Hyles tried to turn into more of a "view point" issue.  You're loyal to me or not.  You're 100% for me or not, etc.  Facts communicated by credible, courageous, humble, witnesses who can set aside an agenda and just speak what they know would be most helpful to this situation.  Viewpoints be derned ...

To be fair, Hyles publicly denounced the 100% for Hyles nonsense.  He should have resigned, when the truth about Dave was revealed. The fact that anyone wanted to have him 'pastor their nation' when he couldn't raise godly kids will always puzzle me.  Still he traveled all the time, and the rabid loyalists grew more and more vapid.  All we had to do was 'send him into evangelism', and none of this would matter.

Anishinabe

He allowed (at least, demanded perhaps) loyalty to him to be  the litmus test for being a true fundamentalist, speaking relationships, etc., etc. - is this not accurate?

He taught the opposite.  He taught against 'litmus tests', demanding loyalty, and requiring your friends to 'unfriend' your enemies.  I heard him ridicule support of himself saying 'I'm not even 100% for Hyles. 

Anishinabe

 

[Bull City Justice]

This thread is interesting.  OP states that there are different opinions in the immediate family as to what JH was like, or at least, they each have a different public testimony as to what home life was like. 

Next, people all pile on with which of the kids are correct and which is wrong and why the poster believes.......

Seems as though the same old argument is taking place.  Whatever paradigm one has, he tries to force the story to fit his view.  Typically, until you are willing to see the other viewpoint, you will never see clearly.  Clouded vision produces clouded judgment which cannot be trusted.

With all due respect, this is what I find maddening.  We are not talking JUST about what "home life was like" for the Hyleses.  We are not talking about "viewpoints."  It's not like a discussion of whether the estate tax is good for the economy or whether a vegetarian diet will produce better overall health.  Either Hyles had inappropriate relationship(s) with women not his wife or he didn't.  Either he knew/hid Dave's stuff or he didn't.  "Viewpoints" are not relevant to those issues, facts are.

It seems Hyles tried to turn into more of a "view point" issue.  You're loyal to me or not.  You're 100% for me or not, etc.  Facts communicated by credible, courageous, humble, witnesses who can set aside an agenda and just speak what they know would be most helpful to this situation.  Viewpoints be derned ...

To be fair, Hyles publicly denounced the 100% for Hyles nonsense.  He should have resigned, when the truth about Dave was revealed. The fact that anyone wanted to have him 'pastor their nation' when he couldn't raise godly kids will always puzzle me.  Still he traveled all the time, and the rabid loyalists grew more and more vapid.  All we had to do was 'send him into evangelism', and none of this would matter.

Anishinabe

He allowed (at least, demanded perhaps) loyalty to him to be  the litmus test for being a true fundamentalist, speaking relationships, etc., etc. - is this not accurate?

He taught the opposite.  He taught against 'litmus tests', demanding loyalty, and requiring your friends to 'unfriend' your enemies.  I heard him ridicule support of himself saying 'I'm not even 100% for Hyles. 

Anishinabe

This isn't a big issue in the grand scheme (and was certainly not my main point in the post above).  But meanwhile I don't doubt your assertion of what he taught.  I guess those stories about the hypothetical extreme things his staff men would do if he asked them to were not true. 

Also, it seems that never has their been a "national" pastor with so much "influence" who was so blatantly ignored by his followers when it came to this particular thing: making adherence to Hyles and his teachings the absolute litmus for pretty much everything about everything when it came to ministry associations, methods, and choosing sides when he was "attacked."  So while he denounced it and taught against it, apparently nobody paid him no mind.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

This thread is interesting.  OP states that there are different opinions in the immediate family as to what JH was like, or at least, they each have a different public testimony as to what home life was like. 

Next, people all pile on with which of the kids are correct and which is wrong and why the poster believes.......

Seems as though the same old argument is taking place.  Whatever paradigm one has, he tries to force the story to fit his view.  Typically, until you are willing to see the other viewpoint, you will never see clearly.  Clouded vision produces clouded judgment which cannot be trusted.

With all due respect, this is what I find maddening.  We are not talking JUST about what "home life was like" for the Hyleses.  We are not talking about "viewpoints."  It's not like a discussion of whether the estate tax is good for the economy or whether a vegetarian diet will produce better overall health.  Either Hyles had inappropriate relationship(s) with women not his wife or he didn't.  Either he knew/hid Dave's stuff or he didn't.  "Viewpoints" are not relevant to those issues, facts are.

It seems Hyles tried to turn into more of a "view point" issue.  You're loyal to me or not.  You're 100% for me or not, etc.  Facts communicated by credible, courageous, humble, witnesses who can set aside an agenda and just speak what they know would be most helpful to this situation.  Viewpoints be derned ...

Your'e approaching this from the paradigm that the accusers are correct and manipulating the other family members testimony (or lack thereof) to be evidence to the same. 

Long story short - there is no factual evidence by which people can make a determination in the case.  Accusations were made, but those accusations were filled with falsehoods and misrepresentations which rendered them useless.  Maybe they were correct on the main issue and embellished to try to create credibility.  But if so, they destroyed their own testimony.

Maybe this is why "Vengeance is mine, I will repay saith the Lord."  Some cases are left to the Great Judge to render a decision.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

This thread is interesting.  OP states that there are different opinions in the immediate family as to what JH was like, or at least, they each have a different public testimony as to what home life was like. 

Next, people all pile on with which of the kids are correct and which is wrong and why the poster believes.......

Seems as though the same old argument is taking place.  Whatever paradigm one has, he tries to force the story to fit his view.  Typically, until you are willing to see the other viewpoint, you will never see clearly.  Clouded vision produces clouded judgment which cannot be trusted.

With all due respect, this is what I find maddening.  We are not talking JUST about what "home life was like" for the Hyleses.  We are not talking about "viewpoints."  It's not like a discussion of whether the estate tax is good for the economy or whether a vegetarian diet will produce better overall health.  Either Hyles had inappropriate relationship(s) with women not his wife or he didn't.  Either he knew/hid Dave's stuff or he didn't.  "Viewpoints" are not relevant to those issues, facts are.

It seems Hyles tried to turn into more of a "view point" issue.  You're loyal to me or not.  You're 100% for me or not, etc.  Facts communicated by credible, courageous, humble, witnesses who can set aside an agenda and just speak what they know would be most helpful to this situation.  Viewpoints be derned ...

To be fair, Hyles publicly denounced the 100% for Hyles nonsense.  He should have resigned, when the truth about Dave was revealed. The fact that anyone wanted to have him 'pastor their nation' when he couldn't raise godly kids will always puzzle me.  Still he traveled all the time, and the rabid loyalists grew more and more vapid.  All we had to do was 'send him into evangelism', and none of this would matter.

Anishinabe

He allowed (at least, demanded perhaps) loyalty to him to be  the litmus test for being a true fundamentalist, speaking relationships, etc., etc. - is this not accurate?

He taught the opposite.  He taught against 'litmus tests', demanding loyalty, and requiring your friends to 'unfriend' your enemies.  I heard him ridicule support of himself saying 'I'm not even 100% for Hyles. 

Anishinabe

This isn't a big issue in the grand scheme (and was certainly not my main point in the post above).  But meanwhile I don't doubt your assertion of what he taught.  I guess those stories about the hypothetical extreme things his staff men would do if he asked them to were not true. 

Also, it seems that never has their been a "national" pastor with so much "influence" who was so blatantly ignored by his followers when it came to this particular thing: making adherence to Hyles and his teachings the absolute litmus for pretty much everything about everything when it came to ministry associations, methods, and choosing sides when he was "attacked."  So while he denounced it and taught against it, apparently nobody paid him no mind.

You are missing a pretty important fact.  The minions took over.  Yes, JH manufactured those minions and they grew in the petry dish that he established.  However, the minions took over.  I remember sitting in his office having a personal discussion about some of the national riffs in fundamentalism.  He showed me the letters he had written to both sides asking them to stop fighting each other and instead go preach Christ.  He requested the preachers quit quibbling over what JH thought and taught, but to love each other as brethren and just preach Christ in their community.  It was to no avail.  Even within the ministry, the constant banter was what JH thought.  Example: Fights between bus ministry and Bible clubs.  The minions were tearing the place apart with infighting, vying for position and prestige - each claiming what Bro. Hyles wants or believes as their trump card.  The system was and is much more complex than an outsider can understand.

 

[Just John]

I don't know the family at all. I knew someone who was a close friend of David growing up and he was certainly not surprised with all that came out about him. But that's all I claim to know. But one thing that kept going through my mind as I read through this thread was "God is not the author of confusion". That Hyles has such questions and speculation surrounding him even now suggests that his character was not sterling.

Many motives have been surmised and have been questioned. Why would Dave not do a "tell all" if there was really something there? It's only fair to say my framework starts from not trusting H. Hyles for a few reasons. So I could make the point quite easily that there really wasn't much in it for Dave to go rogue. The true believers certainly wouldn't believe him with his baggage and the non-IFB crowd didn't know enough about Hyles to care. Not much money in it. An Evangelical corollary might be Franky Shaeffer, the son of Francis Shaeffer who went rogue and wrote all kind of questionable stuff about his parents after his dad died and his mom was mostly too ill to fight back. But Francis Shaeffer's character has remained intact while Franky has pretty much walked away from orthodox Christianity and is now appreciated only from the political left as he vilifies conservative Christians. But the difference there was Francis Schaeffer was very well known in Evangelical circles and had a great impact intellectually on so many.  The point here being Hyles didn't have enough of a "brand" to be too titillating outside of the IFB and not enough in the IFB would believe it.  Easier to trade on dad's positive aspects among those who loved him than vice versa. 

Wife and mother? If the bad things said about JH are true and you have hidden them for so long what's the benefit of changing? You expose yourself as a huge hypocrite. You have to keep the facade up.

Cindy - By most accounts it seems she had some idea about Schaap's issues. How could she not if it was so well known the abusive language he was using with staff and his crazytown theology? But rarely do "First Ladies" go public with anything. They protect the poll numbers as much as possible to keep the administration going.

Disaffected daughter - Could be driven by bitterness. Could be driven by righteous anger. Could be a healthy mixture of both. I would be curious to know the relationship between her mom and her. I think that would offer some insight.

 

[fbcinsider]

People are accusing Linda of having financial motives and of being a "kept" woman. In my opinion, Cindy has tremendous financial motives, and is a kept woman herself. Because she has kept the correct viewpoint in the eyes of IFB, she has never lacked for anything. As long as she keeps that viewpoint and stands by her man, there are plenty of sympathetic souls in her corner. I am sure even as we speak, she is being "kept". Larry Smith, when he spoke (scolded) lately on tithing mentioned that the first of everything from their house goes to Mrs. Schaap. Now, he will doubtless adjust that. Now the firsts will go to Linda Wilkerson, and the seconds will doubtless still go to Cindy Schaap. I'm sure pastors around the country are sending her money, as are sympathetic followers. She always needed assistants to clean her house, do her shopping, and arrange her schedule. I don't know what is on her schedule now, but she still has at least one faithful assistant who is I believe paid by the church to be her personal staff member. But she does not attend FBC.

It's always the little things, too, that are so telling. Having to sit behind her many a Wednesday night, I always thought it infuriating that she chatted with her grandchildren all during the service and fed the grands candy and then left the wrappers all over the floor. I can't bring myself to litter my church. She had no problem with it, regularly. It wasn't just a one-time accident. And talking through church? Well, all we ever heard was how much she and JS doted on the grands, so I guess that is forgivable if that is who she was chatting with...

I have heard from many about her tremendous insecurities and her nearly psychotic paranoia about any woman around her husband. Guess she wasn't so wrong about that, but she shredded many an unsuspecting woman that she deemed (incorrectly) to be a threat.

I will never forget a story JS told that chilled me to the bones. He spoke of when he and Cindy were just starting to be serious. He told her he had to know everything there was to know about her. She said she'd never revealed her innermost self to anyone before, he told her she had to. That was how it had to be between them. So he described taking her to the lake at the college, or something like that, spending hours with her and getting her to open up every aspect of her self to him. Her thoughts, her fears, her desires, her secrets: everything. He was really big on the fact we all have secret lives. He said they left there, forever bound by the fact they'd done this with each other. To me, it just sounded like pure psychological rape. Looking back, I feel sorry for her and for Jaclyn. Jaclynn was not allowed to have a door on her bedroom and had to do things like sign pieces of paper swearing, as a six year old girl, that she would adore her Daddy as much at 16 as she did at the age of 6.

Can you imagine being a woman in his life? In that respect I feel sorry for Cindy. Hopelessly manipulated, but when she in turn is such a warped person because of that, my sympathy ends. She should not be in a place of influence over anyone, ever again. If any misguided churches invite her to speak to their ladies, they are seriously mistaken. She has nothing to offer. Which finally makes sense to me. (as in, I always wondered why, when listening to one of the supposed greatest Christian women on the face of the earth, she seemed to have nothing to say of any significance)

Mrs. Schaap is not supported by the church anymore. It was Bro. Eddie who made the decision to drop her when they laid off people after the whole scandal broke out because they had to make budget. Other than the girl who was seduced by her husband, she is probably the biggest victim in all of this. If she is to blame for any of this, she has already been through more than enough. I can't even imagine the pain she goes through day and night. She has expressed to some friends that she's finding comfort in God and His Word. This is a very trying time for her and she needs our prayers more than anything.

I don't know the whole truth about Bro. Hyles and at this point, the only thing that matters to me is that God knows the truth. His legacy does not define the church. We are defined by our Saviour. As for the Hyles family, I don't see how all this speculation does any good. What everyone needs right now is prayer. God will reveal all hidden things when He sees fit. He's got it all under control, and that's the most important thing.

 

[Norefund]

I don't know the whole truth about Bro. Hyles and at this point, the only thing that matters to me is that God knows the truth. His legacy does not define the church. We are defined by our Saviour. As for the Hyles family, I don't see how all this speculation does any good. What everyone needs right now is prayer. God will reveal all hidden things when He sees fit. He's got it all under control, and that's the most important thing.

But you see, that kind of is the problem. The church is defined by the legacy of Hyles and passed on to his son in law Schaap. It would be wonderful, and perhaps someday will be wonderful, if the church is defined by the Savior as you suggest. If you ask the average person on the street, the average IFB pastor or layman, or even the average FBC member what is the first thing they think of when you say "First Baptist Church" you probably won't hear My Savior as a top two answer - maybe not even top 5.

I so agree with you about the need for prayer for all concerned. I also hope you aren't offended by the expression of my opinion.

 

[Bravo]

Mrs. Schaap is not supported by the church anymore. It was Bro. Eddie who made the decision to drop her when they laid off people after the whole scandal broke out because they had to make budget. Other than the girl who was seduced by her husband, she is probably the biggest victim in all of this. If she is to blame for any of this, she has already been through more than enough. I can't even imagine the pain she goes through day and night. She has expressed to some friends that she's finding comfort in God and His Word. This is a very trying time for her and she needs our prayers more than anything.

Um,... Yes she is still supported. Just verified that but cannot state my source obviously.

 

[myeyesareopen]

Still supported. Hmmm. Thanks for that information. I suspected as much anyway.

 

[16KJV11]

People are accusing Linda of having financial motives and of being a "kept" woman. In my opinion, Cindy has tremendous financial motives, and is a kept woman herself. Because she has kept the correct viewpoint in the eyes of IFB, she has never lacked for anything. As long as she keeps that viewpoint and stands by her man, there are plenty of sympathetic souls in her corner. I am sure even as we speak, she is being "kept". Larry Smith, when he spoke (scolded) lately on tithing mentioned that the first of everything from their house goes to Mrs. Schaap. Now, he will doubtless adjust that. Now the firsts will go to Linda Wilkerson, and the seconds will doubtless still go to Cindy Schaap. I'm sure pastors around the country are sending her money, as are sympathetic followers. She always needed assistants to clean her house, do her shopping, and arrange her schedule. I don't know what is on her schedule now, but she still has at least one faithful assistant who is I believe paid by the church to be her personal staff member. But she does not attend FBC.

It's always the little things, too, that are so telling. Having to sit behind her many a Wednesday night, I always thought it infuriating that she chatted with her grandchildren all during the service and fed the grands candy and then left the wrappers all over the floor. I can't bring myself to litter my church. She had no problem with it, regularly. It wasn't just a one-time accident. And talking through church? Well, all we ever heard was how much she and JS doted on the grands, so I guess that is forgivable if that is who she was chatting with...

I have heard from many about her tremendous insecurities and her nearly psychotic paranoia about any woman around her husband. Guess she wasn't so wrong about that, but she shredded many an unsuspecting woman that she deemed (incorrectly) to be a threat.

I will never forget a story JS told that chilled me to the bones. He spoke of when he and Cindy were just starting to be serious. He told her he had to know everything there was to know about her. She said she'd never revealed her innermost self to anyone before, he told her she had to. That was how it had to be between them. So he described taking her to the lake at the college, or something like that, spending hours with her and getting her to open up every aspect of her self to him. Her thoughts, her fears, her desires, her secrets: everything. He was really big on the fact we all have secret lives. He said they left there, forever bound by the fact they'd done this with each other. To me, it just sounded like pure psychological rape. Looking back, I feel sorry for her and for Jaclyn. Jaclynn was not allowed to have a door on her bedroom and had to do things like sign pieces of paper swearing, as a six year old girl, that she would adore her Daddy as much at 16 as she did at the age of 6.

Can you imagine being a woman in his life? In that respect I feel sorry for Cindy. Hopelessly manipulated, but when she in turn is such a warped person because of that, my sympathy ends. She should not be in a place of influence over anyone, ever again. If any misguided churches invite her to speak to their ladies, they are seriously mistaken. She has nothing to offer. Which finally makes sense to me. (as in, I always wondered why, when listening to one of the supposed greatest Christian women on the face of the earth, she seemed to have nothing to say of any significance)

Mrs. Schaap is not supported by the church anymore. It was Bro. Eddie who made the decision to drop her when they laid off people after the whole scandal broke out because they had to make budget. Other than the girl who was seduced by her husband, she is probably the biggest victim in all of this. If she is to blame for any of this, she has already been through more than enough. I can't even imagine the pain she goes through day and night. She has expressed to some friends that she's finding comfort in God and His Word. This is a very trying time for her and she needs our prayers more than anything.

I don't know the whole truth about Bro. Hyles and at this point, the only thing that matters to me is that God knows the truth. His legacy does not define the church. We are defined by our Saviour. As for the Hyles family, I don't see how all this speculation does any good. What everyone needs right now is prayer. God will reveal all hidden things when He sees fit. He's got it all under control, and that's the most important thing.

Very astute.
All these speculations about Bro. Hyles, the family, etc. etc. will probably never be brought to light, especially because he's dead.
Kind of reminds me of the assassination of JFK and Lee Harvey Oswald.
The truth will never be fully known until we get to glory,
By then, we won't even care.
But....
It makes for juicy gossip...

 

[Bravo]

Still supported. Hmmm. Thanks for that information. I suspected as much anyway.

At this point I do not have an issue with it I guess.

A friend of mine, no way affiliated with this branch of IFB, more of a BoJo'er, stated " the whole congregation was victimized" by the recent events. Those of us that witnessed and invited co workers, this affects our testimonies too. 

 

[myeyesareopen]

At this point I do not have an issue with it I guess.

Well, some of us actually WORK for our money. I know, I know...it's not fair to expect her to work, she's never held a job in her life, and especially not in the *gasp* world.

I find it wildly ironic that both she and her daughter warn women against the tremendous perils of working in the *gasp* world, saying it will ruin your testimony and wreck your life...yet those of us who work in the *gasp* world pay the way for those who find it so wicked a thing...

 

[fbcinsider]

Mrs. Schaap is not supported by the church anymore. It was Bro. Eddie who made the decision to drop her when they laid off people after the whole scandal broke out because they had to make budget. Other than the girl who was seduced by her husband, she is probably the biggest victim in all of this. If she is to blame for any of this, she has already been through more than enough. I can't even imagine the pain she goes through day and night. She has expressed to some friends that she's finding comfort in God and His Word. This is a very trying time for her and she needs our prayers more than anything.

Um,... Yes she is still supported. Just verified that but cannot state my source obviously.

This could have changed recently, but as of about a month or two ago, I am sure she was not supported.

 

[Sherryh]

My contact said she has been supported her monies has not stopped.

 

[fbcinsider]

My contact said she has been supported her monies has not stopped.

I don't know who your contact is, but I could tell you how my contact knows what he/she knows. There's a lot more details as to how it all happened too, but I don't want to disclose that information. I don't want to reveal the identity. Most of the church does not know about this, so your contact could be misinformed. I'm about as sure as can be that her support was stopped. It could have changed though because it was a little while ago. It was before John Wilkerson became the pastor.

 

[Sherryh]

fbcinsider, let me understand this the Feds have frozen js monies and the church stopped paying Cindy..........ok is she working somewhere? or is inlaws paying their bills? we were told she is teaching/working at the college...my contacts are friends that work there.

 

[fbcinsider]

fbcinsider, let me understand this the Feds have frozen js monies and the church stopped paying Cindy..........ok is she working somewhere? or is inlaws paying their bills? we were told she is teaching/working at the college...my contacts are friends that work there.

I don't know what she is doing. She's still getting a little bit from her books, but from what I heard, she's having a hard time paying the bills. I honestly don't know how she is making it. I'm hoping the church picked her back up after John Wilkerson took the pastorate, but I haven't heard anything since finding out they dropped her.

 

[Norefund]

fbcinsider, let me understand this the Feds have frozen js monies and the church stopped paying Cindy..........ok is she working somewhere? or is inlaws paying their bills? we were told she is teaching/working at the college...my contacts are friends that work there.

This is the first time I have read that the Schaap assets are frozen. Why? Isn't that action usually reserved for crimes involving theft or embezzlement?

 

[qwerty]

My contact said she has been supported her monies has not stopped.

You are correct. 

This is kind of a quandary for Wilkerson too; Do you punish the wife for the actions of her husband, do you let her teach at one of the schools, what would she be able to teach, and I am sure some parents would have an issue with that.

 

[Torrent v.2]

My contact said she has been supported her monies has not stopped.

You are correct. 

This is kind of a quandary for Wilkerson too; Do you punish the wife for the actions of her husband, do you let her teach at one of the schools, what would she be able to teach, and I am sure some parents would have an issue with that.

Collateral damage?  Maybe Schaap should have thought of how this would damage his family before he had sex with a minor?