Music - moral, immoral, or amoral?

Ransom said:
Patebald said:
Nude pictures of women... The arrangement of musical notes?? Come on dude. Let's keep this discussion honest and legit. Terrible comparison.
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A perfectly valid fundy comparison, though: if you approve of one, basically harmless action that a fundy disapproves of, it's not merely a difference of opinion; you harbour a secret desire to actually do really big sins. Liking beer means you want to mainline heroin, not wearing a suit and tie to church means you'd love to come nude, and liking music with a beat means you approve of pornography.

The Law of Indistinct Induction (as IronWill once named it) strikes again!
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Good point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ALAYMAN said:
uhhhm, no, my point was not at all that CCM is equivalent to porn, or even that CCM is sin at all, but that sin is sin regardless of whether a blind person perceives it with their senses or not.  I made that point clear from the get-go, and your response indicates either an intellectual dishonesty, or rsc2a-itis (obtusity ;).
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I wasn't responding to you, so I think your response indicates a bad case of methinks-the-lady-protesteth-too-much-itis.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
I am posing a topic that involves the question of whether music in general is moral, immoral or amoral.

Not long ago there was a lot of posting going on in opposing threads entitled and located here:

Against CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone
http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/against-ccm-please-convince-us-from-scripture-alone/

and here:
For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone
http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/for-ccm-please-convince-us-from-scripture-alone/

I browsed the topics and saw a lot of rhetoric thrown out by both sides, so I thought I might approach the topic from a different perspective.

First of all, I want to insert a definition. When I refer to CCM, I define it as a "genre" of music, not simply anything that is contemporary. Contemporary simply means occuring in the present, when we apply that to music, it generally means anything written or performed recently. By that definition "Patch the Pirate" is contemporary. And it is, but it is not part of the larger genre of "CCM", or Contemporary Christian Music.

Second of all, I want to state that music is an important topic in the scriptures. Occasions of the use of music are scattered throughout scripture, an entire songbook consisting of 150 songs, including one that is 22 verses long is located somewhere in the middle of a standard whole Bible. In context, Ephesians 5:15-21 require us to understand God's will concerning music.

So, if God said so much about music, it must not then be amoral. There must be moral and immoral music.

When I look at "music" I see three simple elements at play. First the lyrics. Second the notes and their arrangement. Thirdly the performer. We could add the composer, but for simplicities sake, I will leave the composer out.

So, lets look briefly at each one.

First off the lyrics. Here is where there is some measure of general agreement. To be acceptable in the sight of God, generally, the lyrics must glorify God, or at least glorify Godly principles and certainly must not denigrate or mock God or Godly principles.

Secondly the notes and their arrangement. This is usually where the controversy begins. Do the notes matter? I assert that they do. It is simply juvenile to conclude that Satan with all his influence has not influenced this area of man's domain. Part of our struggle to understand this is that we who speak English do not "sing" the psalms, especially in Hebrew to Jewish music. I have included a couple of examples of the psalms sung in Hebrew to provide as an example.
Psalm 23 sung in Hebrew with text Lost Melodies - Hebrew Chanting - Psalm 95
It is hard to listen to something like this and see CCM music. It is hard to see how for the most part the Contemporary Christian Music phenomena could have been influenced by music that sounds anything at all like this.

Add to this that there is no direct Scripture that states "this is how thou shalt arrange the notes" and we are left to Bible principles and discernment. Much of the Christian life is a matter of discernment. I believe one of the most significant questions to ask is "what emotion or sensation do the notes produce?" Consider the music in any movie. It is there to set emotional context to the scene. Whether upbeat, dark, joyous, moody, suspenseful, angry or whatever mood or emotion you wish to portray, this is achieved through the notes and their arrangement. To suggest the music plays no part in the movies dramatization is to ignore the obvious.
So, what emotion is Jars of Clay trying to produce in "The Flood"? How does this honour the Lord?  Or what emotion is Steven Curtis Chapman trying to produce in "Lord of the Dance"? Or what emotion is Mercy Me trying to produce in "Shake"? (As a side note, this song never identifies who God is, except as "God Almighty", a term any AA, NA, LDS or JW would be fine with) Or, are these simply catering  to the music of our generation in an attempt to sell records with no attempt to glorify God at all? The list of examples is endless. And in truth, there is a lot of grey as opposed to B&W in the area of musical arrangement, which is why discernment must be used.

Thirdly the performer. Does this matter? If it doesn't then Iron Maiden or Pantera or Judas Priest or Justin Bieber or MC Hammer makes no difference. Doesn't wash with me. Ok, then what about Matt Maher and his Mariolatry, or Chris Tomlin and his ties to Rome, or homosexual artists Marsha Stevens, Ray Boltz, Doug Pinnock or Amy Ray? Do these things matter? I contend that they do. Music is meant to glorify God and edify the hearer. Being in a deliberate sinful state does not glorify God. Apply the same principles to for instance unbiblical denominations. I read about Mormons, I don't listen to them. I don't let unbelievers or grossly sinful people minister to me, at least not knowingly.

If the scandalous behaviour of CCM artists is so well known, then let me add an illustration. Here on the FFF, there is a lot of IFBx talk. The where there's smoke there's fire type of approach is often used. We often see posts about things like "when are you going to see that IFB has a bad rep and you should leave it". So, I pose the question, where are the CCMx'ers?

I know, I didn't use any verses. Ok, let me add a few.
1 Corinthians 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Colossians 3:16  Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:15-21  See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Psalms 1:1-150:6

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
James 4:4
1 Corinthians 15:33

Romans 13:12-14

Do all these scriptures have specific commandments in regards to music? No. But viewed as a whole they should certainly shape my choices in music.

I contend then that CCM, the genre, is off limits to the Christian. I further contend that my choices in music must be clearly moral in nature.

Music. Moral, immoral or amoral, what say ye?
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First of all let me say that this is the most well-written summation of the "anti-CCM" argument that I've ever seen. Thank you for being a gentleman and a scholar.

I disagree with a few things though and I have questions about a few more.
You said:
I believe one of the most significant questions to ask is "what emotion or sensation do the notes produce?" Consider the music in any movie. It is there to set emotional context to the scene. Whether upbeat, dark, joyous, moody, suspenseful, angry or whatever mood or emotion you wish to portray, this is achieved through the notes and their arrangement. To suggest the music plays no part in the movies dramatization is to ignore the obvious.
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I agree with this. But you never stated what emotions are bad and which are good. (You named some specific songs but alas, I am not familiar with any of them). It seems maybe you think music that incites one to dance is bad? (forgive me if I am mis-representing your argument) What scripture would give you that indication? I find several scriptures in which dancing is mentioned right along with those praising God in song.

Also,
Thirdly the performer. Does this matter? If it doesn't then Iron Maiden or Pantera or Judas Priest or Justin Bieber or MC Hammer makes no difference. Doesn't wash with me.
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I don't understand? Are you saying that if MC Hammer sings Amazing Grace then the song is bad?
I really don't get what relationship the performer has to the morality of the music.
Maybe you mean that it's wrong to listen to certain performers perform good songs?
I don't let unbelievers or grossly sinful people minister to me, at least not knowingly.
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How do you define "grossly sinful"? Is it arbitrary or Biblical?
Apparently unknowingly is ok though right?

Let's use Chris Tomlin as an example. I know absolutely nothing about Chris Tomlin's life. I don't know his marriage situation, his church situation, his beliefs, etc. However, I rather enjoy much of his music. Are you suggesting that in order for me to be blessed by his ministry that I should research more into his life and if not then I have sinned by listening to his music?
Is that Biblical?

Lastly, and this may not be your position but I've heard people use it and it's always seemed absurd so I'm wondering if you could give your thoughts: If the only 1 of the three elements immoral about a song is the performer and I change the performer to a moral performer then is the music now moral?
I don't see how you could say "no". (For example I take a CCM song with "moral" lyrics and "moral" music sung by a homosexual and I sing it in my church - certainly that's ok right?)
 
Patebald said:
To answer your lame comparative question: No - Playboy is not a sin for a blind man.
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As an aside, in my first year of university, the campus "womyn's" group actually raised a stink about whether the school library should be allowed to carry the Braille edition of Playboy.  What made the controversy silly, of course, is that for obvious reasons, anyone reading the Braille version was truthfully reading it for the articles. (In addition to the pictorials, Playboy has published many notable interviews, short fiction by well-known authors, and other material of actual literary merit.)
 
[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]I don't let unbelievers or grossly sinful people minister to me, at least not knowingly.[/quote]

I just noticed this. And I pray that you will change your attitude. To deliberately shut out opportunities for God to show His grace into your life because of your own sense of self-righteousness, arrogance, and judgemental attitude. Thank you God that I am not like this publican... God uses all kinds of people to do His will and I am hopeful that you will not continue to reject God's grace because of the vehicle He uses to deliver it.
 
hhhhhmmmmmmm are you sure about that?.....  ???...... a couple of questions then.... if you please.....  are we assuming he purchased the magazine?.... or simply picked it up on a counter without seeing what it was?.... ???.......... sexual exploitation of women ... and the commercialization of it....should be a concern for christians whether blind men know what is contained on the pages of a magazine in their proximity or not............ and are you aware there is a braille version of playboy?....... playboy has an antiGod stance that is counter to virtually everything christians believe......... and pornography encompasses far more than just naked pictures.... printed pages describing lurid sexual acts is also considered pornography.... the pages of playboy is full of such stories....... both the braille and regular versions...... you might want to rethink whether that was really such a lame question or not.....  :-\

This….

As an aside, in my first year of university, the campus "womyn's" group actually raised a stink about whether the school library should be allowed to carry the Braille edition of Playboy.  What made the controversy silly, of course, is that for obvious reasons, anyone reading the Braille version was truthfully reading it for the articles. (In addition to the pictorials, Playboy has published many notable interviews, short fiction by well-known authors, and other material of actual literary merit.)
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aleshanee said:
are we assuming he purchased the magazine?.... or simply picked it up on a counter without seeing what it was?....
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Yes, I'm pretty sure the blind man picked it up without seeing what it was.
 
and pornography encompasses far more than just naked pictures.... printed pages describing lurid sexual acts is also considered pornography
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So you'd consider Song of Solomon to be pornography, right?
 
subllibrm said:
If you are not/were not equating it to CCM and sin then why bring it up as a counter argument on a thread about CCM?
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I was simply showing the fallacious reasoning of Pate, and how easily people might be deceived by such goofy argumentation.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Of course he went on to make even more outrageously bizarre statements about Playboy, which aleshanee nailed him on.


Ransom said:
I wasn't responding to you, so I think your response indicates a bad case of methinks-the-lady-protesteth-too-much-itis.
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Maybe in addition to obtusitis you also have had a distinction-without-a-difference-otomy.
 
ALAYMAN said:
uhhhm, no, my point was not at all that CCM is equivalent to porn, or even that CCM is sin at all, but that sin is sin regardless of whether a blind person perceives it with their senses or not.  I made that point clear from the get-go, and your response indicates either an intellectual dishonesty, or rsc2a-itis (obtusity ;).
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Why was this post above (reply#59) edited/moderated?
 
ALAYMAN said:
Why was this post above (reply#59) edited/moderated?
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No changes were made.  Unfortunately I have a nasty habit of hitting the "modify" button instead of "quote," from time to time, as others here can attest. It shows a change because I undid what I did by mistake.
 
I think music is amoral...but the people who perform it aren't.....I wouldn't buy fifty cent's CD of hymns.





 
ItinerantPreacher said:
Thirdly the performer. Does this matter? If it doesn't then Iron Maiden or Pantera or Judas Priest or Justin Bieber or MC Hammer makes no difference. Doesn't wash with me.
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Since no one is claiming that any of the above are performers of contemporary Christian music, then your argument doesn't wash with me.

Ok, then what about Matt Maher and his Mariolatry,
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In Protestant/Evangelical circles, Matt Maher is known pretty much exclusively for a single song, "Your Grace is Enough."

Would you be so kind as to point out the "Mariolatry" in that song?

or Chris Tomlin and his ties to Rome,
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Funny how if I try to Google Chris Tomlin in some connection to Catholicism, I don't actually find any of his ties to Catholicism. I do find a lot of fundy sites (like David Cloud) claiming he has them, though.

I imagine that one fundy prophet got outraged about something, claimed he had ties to Rome, and then a bunch of uncritical morons repeated it. Fundy scandal sites are an incestuous bunch. So I'm claiming shoddy research on this one.

or homosexual artists Marsha Stevens,
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Known for one song published in 1969. She came in the early 1980s, over 30 years ago. I'll bet if you poll any given church's 15-30 age group, very few of them have any idea who Marsha Stevens is, nor have they ever sung "For Those Tears I Died." She is, in short, irrelevant.

Ray Boltz,
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When was the last time you heard a Ray Boltz song on the radio, or "I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb" sung abysmally in church? When Boltz came out, Christians dropped him like a bad habit.

Doug Pinnock
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King's X has never claimed to be a Christian band, and Pinnock himself no longer claims to be a Christian. Another irrelevant example.

or Amy Ray?
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So far as I know, Amy Ray has never claimed to be a Christian, nor have the Indigo Girls ever claimed to be a Christian band. This irrelevant example is so far afield I'm not even sure I'm reading the same post anymore.

Do these things matter?
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Do your arguments matter? You appear to be so poorly informed that anything else you might assert is automatically suspect.
 
Ok, is I hit reply, this would get long.

I never claimed anyone here was saying those were performers of Christian music, the point I was trying to make was simple, if the performer doesn't matter, then those performers are acceptable. Nothing more than that.

I don't listen to CCM, so I have no way to argue what is popular and what is not. There is no CCM radio station in my area, so I have to do simple google research to find out who MAY be popular. Of course, you are not qualified to speak on behalf of "Protestant/Evangelical circles", as your Chroistian experience is pretty limited in light of larger Christendom, but lets pretend you are.

Matt Maher - Still tours, still produces albums as well as writing for other artists. He identifies himself as Catholic. Didn't need Cloud at all.

Chris Tomlin's co-writer is Matt Maher. Tomlin also performs/ed with Catholic artists, goes so far as to invite them to tour with him.

Doug Pinnick/Kings X?
http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/show_interview.php?id=972
http://www.fromoutofnowhere.com/dug0606.html

Indigo Girls music is certainly filled with theology. However, as I don't listen to CCM, I do read who others consider to be CCM artists. If I was wrong about her, I was wrong. Doesn't change my overall point.
http://blogs.pioneerlocal.com/religion/2010/04/christian_singers_come_out_of.html
You don't need Cloud to find info on CCM artist coming out of the closet, or at least advocating gay rights.
http://www.glaad.org/blog/pop-and-christian-singer-amy-grant-does-first-gay-press-interview

 
ItinerantPreacher said:
I never claimed anyone here was saying those were performers of Christian music,
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I didn't say that "anyone" was saying they were performers of Christian music. I was saying that you were claiming they were performers of Christian music. You'll note the time your OP, ostensibly about "music," keeps going back to the topic of "CCM":

ItinerantPreacher said:
Not long ago there was a lot of posting going on in opposing threads entitled and located here:

Against CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone . . .

and here:
For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone . . .

I browsed the topics and saw a lot of rhetoric thrown out by both sides, so I thought I might approach the topic from a different perspective.

First of all, I want to insert a definition. When I refer to CCM . . .

It is hard to listen to something like this and see CCM music. It is hard to see how for the most part the Contemporary Christian Music phenomena could have been influenced by music that sounds anything at all like this. . . .

If the scandalous behaviour of CCM artists . . . So, I pose the question, where are the CCMx'ers?

I contend then that CCM, the genre, is off limits to the Christian. . . .
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Now, add to this soup a long grocery list of predominantly Christian musicians and former-Christian musicians, and I think it's perfectly clear what you are implying about the couple of non-Christian examples you threw into that paragraph without any qualifications: Chris Tomlin is no different from Ray Boltz and Amy Ray.

Please, don't waste our time trying to BS us with this transparent dishonestly. It's all too easy to see through.

I don't listen to CCM, so I have no way to argue what is popular and what is not. There is no CCM radio station in my area, so I have to do simple google research to find out who MAY be popular.
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Now you're just excusing laziness by calling it diligence.

Of course, you are not qualified to speak on behalf of "Protestant/Evangelical circles", as your Chroistian experience is pretty limited in light of larger Christendom, but lets pretend you are.
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Why? I couild easily just say, "Of course, ItinerantPreacher has just presented himself as an ignoramus who tries to argue against CCM using a bunch of out-of-date examples and a liberal helping of intellectual dishonesty, but let's pretend he's not."

No, I have a better idea. If you're an ignoramus, and you are, then I'm going to treat you as an ignoramus.

Matt Maher - Still tours, still produces albums as well as writing for other artists. He identifies himself as Catholic. Didn't need Cloud at all.
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I didn't say otherwise. I asked you to find the "Mariolatry" in the one song of his that you tend to hear in evangelical churches, "Your Grace Is Enough."

You provided none. So your pass/fail ratio stands at 0/1.

Chris Tomlin's co-writer is Matt Maher. Tomlin also performs/ed with Catholic artists, goes so far as to invite them to tour with him.
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No examples given. Also, you claimed "ties to Rome," implying a more formal relationship with the Roman Catholic Church than artistic collaborations with Roman Catholic musicians. So you have committed a category error to misrepresent your case as stronger than it was.

Pass/fail ratio: 0/2.

Doug Pinnick/Kings X?
http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/show_interview.php?id=972
http://www.fromoutofnowhere.com/dug0606.html
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Riiight. So I say that King's X was never a Christian band and Doug Pinnick does not call himself a Christian, and you, by way of refutation, post interviews that say King's X was not a Christian band and Doug Pinnick does not call himself a Christian.

I'll just pretend I was refuted. No, on second thought, I won't.

Pass/fail ratio: 0/3.

Indigo Girls music is certainly filled with theology. However, as I don't listen to CCM, I do read who others consider to be CCM artists. If I was wrong about her, I was wrong. Doesn't change my overall point.
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You're right. Your point was already debunked, so trumpeting your ignorance doesn't change it to a sound one. Also, it changes your pass/fail ratio to 0/4.

http://www.glaad.org/blog/pop-and-christian-singer-amy-grant-does-first-gay-press-interview
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Poor Amy, still struggling to regain some of the credibility she lost back in 1999 when she left her husband and married Vince Gill. Frankly, what she has to say about gays is of secondary concern.
 
Catlick composers are out?

No more "Silent Night", sorry.
 
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