Nicolaitan

[Mathew Ward]

How do these people submit to their authority?

Try reading the Bible.  It's a fascinating book, really.  Here's an example for you:

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

Paul, who helped found the church in Corinth, gave instructions for orderly behavior when they assemble.  I would assume they submitted to his authority on that subject. 

Do you consider the Bible an authority?  Do you submit to this authority?

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

So you don't know how they submitted to their leaders authority.

2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

It does seem that God gives men authority over others to help them.

Please define who a prophet is.

Of course you only have 2 or 3 prophets speak and the women are not allowed to speak at the assembly. Is that correct?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

How do these people submit to their authority?

Try reading the Bible.  It's a fascinating book, really.  Here's an example for you:

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

Paul, who helped found the church in Corinth, gave instructions for orderly behavior when they assemble.  I would assume they submitted to his authority on that subject. 

Do you consider the Bible an authority?  Do you submit to this authority?

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

So you don't know how they submitted to their leaders authority.

2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

It does seem that God gives men authority over others to help them.

Please define who a prophet is.

Of course you only have 2 or 3 prophets speak and the women are not allowed to speak at the assembly. Is that correct?

Answer my question first.  Do you submit to that authority? 

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]...the women are not allowed to speak at the assembly. Is that correct?
[/quote]

Not here! What kind of loose ship are you running? Next thing,  they'll be wanting to vote and work outside the home!

Apostate modernists...

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]...the women are not allowed to speak at the assembly. Is that correct?

Not here! What kind of loose ship are you running? Next thing,  they'll be wanting to vote and work outside the home!

Apostate modernists...
[/quote]

That is a tough command that almost nobody obeys.  I don't know any assembly that obeys it.  But for those who claim it is a cultural thing, observe the words in bold. 

34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.

So either Paul was overstepping his bounds and imposing a cultural standard that really isn't from the Lord despite what he says (a possibility, IMO), or the command is what it is, and it comes from the Lord. 

I should actually take his advice, "But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored" and ignore those who disregard the part about "let two or three prophets speak" in favor of anointing a central pastor/preacher as their local god. 

 

[Mathew Ward]

How do these people submit to their authority?

Try reading the Bible.  It's a fascinating book, really.  Here's an example for you:

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

Paul, who helped found the church in Corinth, gave instructions for orderly behavior when they assemble.  I would assume they submitted to his authority on that subject. 

Do you consider the Bible an authority?  Do you submit to this authority?

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

So you don't know how they submitted to their leaders authority.

2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

It does seem that God gives men authority over others to help them.

Please define who a prophet is.

Of course you only have 2 or 3 prophets speak and the women are not allowed to speak at the assembly. Is that correct?

Answer my question first.  Do you submit to that authority? 

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

Yes I submit to the authority of the Bible.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

How do these people submit to their authority?

Try reading the Bible.  It's a fascinating book, really.  Here's an example for you:

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

Paul, who helped found the church in Corinth, gave instructions for orderly behavior when they assemble.  I would assume they submitted to his authority on that subject. 

Do you consider the Bible an authority?  Do you submit to this authority?

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

So you don't know how they submitted to their leaders authority.

2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

It does seem that God gives men authority over others to help them.

Please define who a prophet is.

Of course you only have 2 or 3 prophets speak and the women are not allowed to speak at the assembly. Is that correct?

Answer my question first.  Do you submit to that authority? 

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

Yes I submit to the authority of the Bible.

Thank you for that non-answer.  You know I was being specific.  But I guess I should take Paul's advice and ignore you from now on. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Mater:
Again, if you interpret it to mean ruling over people, you contradict the words of our Lord.  NIV has the better translation here:

17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Note also that it is not a given that those who direct the affairs of the church also preach and teach. It say especially those elders who (also) preach and teach. 

You prove the point.
Elders direct the affairs of the church.
Especially the elders who preach and teach.

And elders are worthy of double honor!

Our church body has an 'administrative pastor' who helps direct the affairs of the church...decently and in order'.
Another preaches and teaches in the worship services.
Still others have separate responsibilities that involve both aspects of this.

If we were 2-3 around the kitchen table, that division of labor wouldn't be necessary! 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

"Elders" is plural, and "be submissive to one another" cannot be interpreted as a call for an elder (or pastor) to rule over anyone.

Who or what are the elders ruling over, then?

"Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine." I Timothy 5:17

I Tim 5:17 is
Written to one man?
Who is at one church, Ephesus?
Being told how to treat elders (pl)?
In that church?

Is this consistent with the multiple bishops at Philippi?

Or the presbytery that laid hands on Tim?

Or, the fact that God sends at least 2 witnesses to represent Him, consistently, from the Law to Revelation's magic martyrs?

And your point is?
Our church presently has 6 Pastors.
When we were a kitchen table church we didn't need six pastors....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

"Elders" is plural, and "be submissive to one another" cannot be interpreted as a call for an elder (or pastor) to rule over anyone.

Who or what are the elders ruling over, then?

"Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine." I Timothy 5:17

You can't site scripture to the kitchen table crowd...to them Scripture doesn't say what it means and doesn't mean what it says. They use the contortion and double jointed method of hermeneutics.

Interesting.  So when it says to be baptized for the remission of sins,  you teach people to be baptized for the remission of sins?

You want to compare apples and tractor trailers!

One of the basic principles of hermeneutics:
WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING.
UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC, FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.

 

[rsc2a]

You can't site scripture to the kitchen table crowd...to them Scripture doesn't say what it means and doesn't mean what it says. They use the contortion and double jointed method of hermeneutics.

Interesting.  So when it says to be baptized for the remission of sins,  you teach people to be baptized for the remission of sins?

You want to compare apples and tractor trailers!

One of the basic principles of hermeneutics:
WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING.
UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC, FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.

It would have easier for you say you didn't actually mean what you wrote.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

"Elders" is plural, and "be submissive to one another" cannot be interpreted as a call for an elder (or pastor) to rule over anyone.

Who or what are the elders ruling over, then?

"Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine." I Timothy 5:17

You can't site scripture to the kitchen table crowd...to them Scripture doesn't say what it means and doesn't mean what it says. They use the contortion and double jointed method of hermeneutics.

Interesting.  So when it says to be baptized for the remission of sins,  you teach people to be baptized for the remission of sins?

You want to compare apples and tractor trailers!

One of the basic principles of hermeneutics:
WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING.
UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC, FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.

In other words, you agree that you believe the "common sense", "literal" verse that rsc2a posted that one must be baptized for the remission of sins. Got it.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Smellin Coffee]In other words, you agree that you believe the "common sense", "literal" verse that rsc2a posted that one must be baptized for the remission of sins. Got it. [/quote]

If course he doesn't.  He just had this gigantic gaping blind spot and the world's most obvious double standard.

I don't really fault him.  He had been taught his entire life an incorrect definition of "church", and that understanding is how he views reality.  It will take a paradigm shift on his part, a redefinition of church that fundamentally changes his understanding of the body of Christ before he gets it. 

It's also why he keeps arguing against a caricature of the "kitchen table crowd" instead of hearing our legitimate complaints.  I believe many advocates of "kitchen table" churches go entirely too far,  but to be intentionally deaf to them is simply a way of ignoring your own warts. The caricature is a means by which one can dismiss the entire group based on a wildly distorted represention of a very few.  (I have the same problem with caricatures of fundamentalists for the same reason.)

 

[subllibrm]

I believe many advocates of "kitchen table" churches go entirely too far ...

Call on line one for The Rogue Tomato.

 

 

[rsc2a]

I believe many advocates of "kitchen table" churches go entirely too far ...

Call on line one for The Rogue Tomato.

 

In some areas, yes.  He and I can still get along in spite of it.

 

[Mathew Ward]

How do these people submit to their authority?

Try reading the Bible.  It's a fascinating book, really.  Here's an example for you:

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

Paul, who helped found the church in Corinth, gave instructions for orderly behavior when they assemble.  I would assume they submitted to his authority on that subject. 

Do you consider the Bible an authority?  Do you submit to this authority?

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

So you don't know how they submitted to their leaders authority.

2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

It does seem that God gives men authority over others to help them.

Please define who a prophet is.

Of course you only have 2 or 3 prophets speak and the women are not allowed to speak at the assembly. Is that correct?

Answer my question first.  Do you submit to that authority? 

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

Yes I submit to the authority of the Bible.

Thank you for that non-answer.  You know I was being specific.  But I guess I should take Paul's advice and ignore you from now on.

There is a difference between submitting to the authority of the Bible and submitting to another persons interpretation of the Bible.

But you do yourself a disservice if you are picking and choosing what you are willing to overlook from this chapter. If you were truly following this chapter you would follow all aspects and not excuse the part of women because no one does it.

You could always start a house church that does this, unless of course your wife wants to talk in her home.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Here is my question:

Among those who practice church outside of the home, do you believe the pastor/priest model?  Will the pastor report to God what the people did and God will reward them accordingly, or will the pastor be held accountable for his actions in leading the people?  Do the people need to obey, in faith, the command of the pastor?  Or, is the pastor to set an example of faith for others to witness?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Mathew Ward]There is a difference between submitting to the authority of the Bible and submitting to another persons interpretation of the Bible.[/quote]

Everyone interprets scripture through a lense that includes the interpretation of others.  Your 21st understanding of "saved by grace through faith" is colored by people like Luther and Zwingli. The canon of the very Bible your appeal to was recognized by folks 1700 years ago. The Baptist distinctives you apply...

A great part of becoming a better student of Scripture is learning to recognize your own biases and asking how they are influencing your understanding of the text.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

There is a difference between submitting to the authority of the Bible and submitting to another persons interpretation of the Bible.

Oh, I see.  It's all a matter of interpretation.  So when you read:

"29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged."

You interpret that to mean "Only the one preacher should speak, and the others listen."

As for me, I'm going to interpret this part like the plain language it is: 

"what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored."

And since you're ignoring these plain instructions in favor of your "interpretation", you will be ignored.  By me, at least. 

 

[Mathew Ward]

There is a difference between submitting to the authority of the Bible and submitting to another persons interpretation of the Bible.

Oh, I see.  It's all a matter of interpretation.  So when you read:

"29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged."

You interpret that to mean "Only the one preacher should speak, and the others listen."

As for me, I'm going to interpret this part like the plain language it is: 

"what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored."

And since you're ignoring these plain instructions in favor of your "interpretation", you will be ignored.  By me, at least.

So when you said if I answered your question first you would answer mine, that wasn't quite forth coming?

But if you are going to ignore those who don't hold to the house church model I suppose you will be ignoring quite a few folks here.

Just let me know when you find that assembly where the womin folk don't talk.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

There is a difference between submitting to the authority of the Bible and submitting to another persons interpretation of the Bible.

Oh, I see.  It's all a matter of interpretation.  So when you read:

"29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged."

You interpret that to mean "Only the one preacher should speak, and the others listen."

As for me, I'm going to interpret this part like the plain language it is: 

"what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored."

And since you're ignoring these plain instructions in favor of your "interpretation", you will be ignored.  By me, at least.

So when you said if I answered your question first you would answer mine, that wasn't quite forth coming?

Sure.  We submit to the authority of scripture. 

Sauce for the goose.