Nicolaitan

[prophet]

1. Hebrews 13 isn't talking to a church.
  It is talking to a Race. 
  They still had teachers over them, about whom Jesus said this:

Mat 23:2-3
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses 'seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not.

Earnestly Contend.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So noted, Dan doesn't believe he has the answers....but he does believe he has discovered truth about Paul and Scripture and the motive behind hermeneutic principles that has escaped or deceived the church and those gullible Christians for centuries! 

People have been arguing over what belongs in the canon for much more than centuries.  Those who assume it's all supposed to be there and force some kind of harmonization are the ones who are being gullible.  I may not agree with all the conclusions of SC, but any fool can see how Paul (and others) contradict the words of Jesus.  Sometimes I look for a way to harmonize the two.  When I can't harmonize the two, I pick Jesus over fallible men like Paul, James, Peter, the writer of Hebrews, etc. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

My basic position is not 'my position', but  that of historic, orthodox Christianity!

And there it is: an admission to adopting a traditional position instead of coming to your own conclusions.

Who says that Evangelicals are nothing like the Pharisees?

Carry on!

The irony here is rich, Dan.

According to you:
I'm admitting that I'm either too dumb or too lazy to research in order to form my belief system.
And, I"M a Pharisee?!

Oh! The irony! 

The Pharisaical comparison is not about hypocrisy but rather their reliance on tradition as support for their belief system. They took a conclusion that had been handed down through centuries and created a religious system to conform to that conclusion. To say that "centuries of theologians" have believed something makes it true is not a valid hermeneutic, IMHO.

FYI, I would never conclude you are either lazy or dumb. Stubborn perhaps but not lazy or dumb.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I understand but when Jesus said to call only Him as Rabbi and to follow only Him, that kinda puts Paul's (or anyone else's) words on the back-burner.

Exactly.  And between the two, who is perfect?  Not Paul. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato] And between the two, who is perfect?  Not Paul. [/quote]

Peter?  Mary?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So noted, Dan doesn't believe he has the answers....but he does believe he has discovered truth about Paul and Scripture and the motive behind hermeneutic principles that has escaped or deceived the church and those gullible Christians for centuries! 

People have been arguing over what belongs in the canon for much more than centuries.  Those who assume it's all supposed to be there and force some kind of harmonization are the ones who are being gullible.  I may not agree with all the conclusions of SC, but any fool can see how Paul (and others) contradict the words of Jesus.  Sometimes I look for a way to harmonize the two.  When I can't harmonize the two, I pick Jesus over fallible men like Paul, James, Peter, the writer of Hebrews, etc.

Precisely.

I believe that one of the most beautiful pieces of literature ever written was penned by Paul. (I Corinthians 13) I don't throw things out simply because Paul mentions it but rather try to take his writings, and run them through two grids: the grid of the teaching of Jesus and the grid of his personal character.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

What safeguards can be implemented to prevent the move from pastor to mog?  If one moves to a new area for work, how can he determine if a pastor is a pastor or a mog?

To prevent a pastor from becoming carnal? The only thing that comes to mind is when he gives Biblical counsel, thank him for it's Biblicity as opposed to thanking him for being him. Thank him for "being the guy who takes the time to search the scriptures and spend time in prayer". It will encourage him to continue.

So, the avoiding when moving to a new area, do a survey trip and vet the churches before deciding to move. Make the church you move to as large a part of the decision as the finances and work. Visit, spend some time, get to know the people, observe how they interact with the pastor. Ask him a hundred questions, ie form your own pulpit committe of you and your wife.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

1. Hebrews 13 isn't talking to a church.
  It is talking to a Race. 
  They still had teachers over them, about whom Jesus said this:

Mat 23:2-3
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses 'seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not.

Earnestly Contend.

So, prophet, the present day Jews are supposed to worship outside the NT church, they have a different structure of assembly than we do?

 

[prophet]

1. Hebrews 13 isn't talking to a church.
  It is talking to a Race. 
  They still had teachers over them, about whom Jesus said this:

Mat 23:2-3
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses 'seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not.

Earnestly Contend.

So, prophet, the present day Jews are supposed to worship outside the NT church, they have a different structure of assembly than we do?

Because the Bible was written yesterday?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

My basic position is not 'my position', but  that of historic, orthodox Christianity!

And there it is: an admission to adopting a traditional position instead of coming to your own conclusions.

Who says that Evangelicals are nothing like the Pharisees?

Carry on!

The irony here is rich, Dan.

According to you:
I'm admitting that I'm either too dumb or too lazy to research in order to form my belief system.
And, I"M a Pharisee?!

Oh! The irony! 

The Pharisaical comparison is not about hypocrisy but rather their reliance on tradition as support for their belief system. They took a conclusion that had been handed down through centuries and created a religious system to conform to that conclusion. To say that "centuries of theologians" have believed something makes it true is not a valid hermeneutic, IMHO.

FYI, I would never conclude you are either lazy or dumb. Stubborn perhaps but not lazy or dumb.

I understand that you believe you have realized the egregious error of orthodoxy for these many centuries....but I always think of Eph. 4:14 when I interact with you on this level.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

So noted, Dan doesn't believe he has the answers....but he does believe he has discovered truth about Paul and Scripture and the motive behind hermeneutic principles that has escaped or deceived the church and those gullible Christians for centuries! 

People have been arguing over what belongs in the canon for much more than centuries.  Those who assume it's all supposed to be there and force some kind of harmonization are the ones who are being gullible.  I may not agree with all the conclusions of SC, but any fool can see how Paul (and others) contradict the words of Jesus.  Sometimes I look for a way to harmonize the two.  When I can't harmonize the two, I pick Jesus over fallible men like Paul, James, Peter, the writer of Hebrews, etc.

People have also argued over who Jesus really was for centuries.
A lack of understanding of Scripture, lack of understanding of hermeneutics have been the basis of every cult and false teacher thru the centuries.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

1. Hebrews 13 isn't talking to a church.
  It is talking to a Race. 
  They still had teachers over them, about whom Jesus said this:

Mat 23:2-3
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses 'seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not.

Earnestly Contend.

So, prophet, the present day Jews are supposed to worship outside the NT church, they have a different structure of assembly than we do?

Because the Bible was written yesterday?

No prophet. Because all the books of the NT were written after the NT started. You said the verses in question in Hebrews refer to teachers the Jews had over them. What teachers? The verses you referred to in Matthew are OT. They may be in Matthew, but the Old covenant was still in effect. It was not when Hebrews was written.

So if those teachers were over the Jews, they are still over the Jews. Who are they? You are claiming that they are not pastors/bishops/elders, so who are they?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]People have also argued over who Jesus really was for centuries.[/quote]

Middle class white dude.  Republican.  NRA member.  Staunch capitalist.  Big fan of bootstraps economics. One time union member.  Hates all the same people we hate.  Ex-soldier.  American patriot. 

 

[subllibrm]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]People have also argued over who Jesus really was for centuries.

Middle class white dude.  Republican.  NRA member.  Staunch capitalist.  Big fan of bootstraps economics. One time union member.  Hates all the same people we hate.  Ex-soldier.  American patriot.
[/quote]

Okay, now that is funny!

 

[prophet]

Quote from: prophet on November 04, 2014, 04:56:58 AM

Quote from: ItinerantPreacher on November 03, 2014, 07:08:48 PM

Quote from: prophet on November 03, 2014, 01:44:54 PM

1. Hebrews 13 isn't talking to a church.
   It is talking to a Race. 
   They still had teachers over them, about whom Jesus said this:

Mat 23:2-3
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses 'seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not.

Earnestly Contend.

So, prophet, the present day Jews are supposed to worship outside the NT church, they have a different structure of assembly than we do?

Because the Bible was written yesterday?

No prophet. Because all the books of the NT were written after the NT started. You said the verses in question in Hebrews refer to teachers the Jews had over them. What teachers? The verses you referred to in Matthew are OT. They may be in Matthew, but the Old covenant was still in effect. It was not when Hebrews was written.

So if those teachers were over the Jews, they are still over the Jews. Who are they? You are claiming that they are not pastors/bishops/elders, so who are they?

So, Israel ceased to exist, when Jesus died?

Earnestly Contend.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Quote from: prophet on November 04, 2014, 04:56:58 AM

Quote from: ItinerantPreacher on November 03, 2014, 07:08:48 PM

Quote from: prophet on November 03, 2014, 01:44:54 PM

1. Hebrews 13 isn't talking to a church.
  It is talking to a Race. 
  They still had teachers over them, about whom Jesus said this:

Mat 23:2-3
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses 'seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not.

Earnestly Contend.

So, prophet, the present day Jews are supposed to worship outside the NT church, they have a different structure of assembly than we do?

Because the Bible was written yesterday?

No prophet. Because all the books of the NT were written after the NT started. You said the verses in question in Hebrews refer to teachers the Jews had over them. What teachers? The verses you referred to in Matthew are OT. They may be in Matthew, but the Old covenant was still in effect. It was not when Hebrews was written.

So if those teachers were over the Jews, they are still over the Jews. Who are they? You are claiming that they are not pastors/bishops/elders, so who are they?

So, Israel ceased to exist, when Jesus died?

Earnestly Contend.

Of course not, but OT practice did. You never answered the question, is a Jew supposed to assemble in a NT church?

 

[subllibrm]

Quote from: prophet on November 04, 2014, 04:56:58 AM

Quote from: ItinerantPreacher on November 03, 2014, 07:08:48 PM

Quote from: prophet on November 03, 2014, 01:44:54 PM

1. Hebrews 13 isn't talking to a church.
  It is talking to a Race. 
  They still had teachers over them, about whom Jesus said this:

Mat 23:2-3
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses 'seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not.

Earnestly Contend.

So, prophet, the present day Jews are supposed to worship outside the NT church, they have a different structure of assembly than we do?

Because the Bible was written yesterday?

No prophet. Because all the books of the NT were written after the NT started. You said the verses in question in Hebrews refer to teachers the Jews had over them. What teachers? The verses you referred to in Matthew are OT. They may be in Matthew, but the Old covenant was still in effect. It was not when Hebrews was written.

So if those teachers were over the Jews, they are still over the Jews. Who are they? You are claiming that they are not pastors/bishops/elders, so who are they?

So, Israel ceased to exist, when Jesus died?

Earnestly Contend.

Of course not, but OT practice did. You never answered the question, is a Jew supposed to assemble in a NT church?

Of course they should. They did in the bible why wouldn't they do so now? [assuming we are taking about a Jesus Christ believing Jew]

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Quote from: prophet on November 04, 2014, 04:56:58 AM

Quote from: ItinerantPreacher on November 03, 2014, 07:08:48 PM

Quote from: prophet on November 03, 2014, 01:44:54 PM

1. Hebrews 13 isn't talking to a church.
  It is talking to a Race. 
  They still had teachers over them, about whom Jesus said this:

Mat 23:2-3
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses 'seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not.

Earnestly Contend.

So, prophet, the present day Jews are supposed to worship outside the NT church, they have a different structure of assembly than we do?

Because the Bible was written yesterday?

No prophet. Because all the books of the NT were written after the NT started. You said the verses in question in Hebrews refer to teachers the Jews had over them. What teachers? The verses you referred to in Matthew are OT. They may be in Matthew, but the Old covenant was still in effect. It was not when Hebrews was written.

So if those teachers were over the Jews, they are still over the Jews. Who are they? You are claiming that they are not pastors/bishops/elders, so who are they?

So, Israel ceased to exist, when Jesus died?

Earnestly Contend.

Of course not, but OT practice did. You never answered the question, is a Jew supposed to assemble in a NT church?

Of course they should. They did in the bible why wouldn't they do so now? [assuming we are taking about a Jesus Christ believing Jew]

Agreed, and yes, assuming a believing Jew as well.

Here is my point. prophet said that Hebrews 13 isn't talking to a church, it is talking to a race. The question is  only partly answered by asking who is the passage talking to, the other half of the question is what was the passage talking about.

prophet then went on to cross reference Hebrews 13 with Matthew 23, and stated this in doing so: "They still had teachers over them, about whom Jesus said this:"

So prophet is inferring that these teachers are not NT "teachers", but rather the same teachers that they had over them during the OT or Old Covenant. But they don't. Hebrews was written to NT Jews, helping them to understand the change in covenants, so chapter 13 isn't telling them to remember the Old, but to recognize the New. Matthew 23 is an out of context cross reference because those offices had clearly changed when the covenant/testaments changed.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]People have also argued over who Jesus really was for centuries.

Middle class white dude.  Republican.  NRA member.  Staunch capitalist.  Big fan of bootstraps economics. One time union member.  Hates all the same people we hate.  Ex-soldier.  American patriot.
[/quote]

 

[Smellin Coffee]

My basic position is not 'my position', but  that of historic, orthodox Christianity!

And there it is: an admission to adopting a traditional position instead of coming to your own conclusions.

Who says that Evangelicals are nothing like the Pharisees?

Carry on!

The irony here is rich, Dan.

According to you:
I'm admitting that I'm either too dumb or too lazy to research in order to form my belief system.
And, I"M a Pharisee?!

Oh! The irony! 

The Pharisaical comparison is not about hypocrisy but rather their reliance on tradition as support for their belief system. They took a conclusion that had been handed down through centuries and created a religious system to conform to that conclusion. To say that "centuries of theologians" have believed something makes it true is not a valid hermeneutic, IMHO.

FYI, I would never conclude you are either lazy or dumb. Stubborn perhaps but not lazy or dumb.

I understand that you believe you have realized the egregious error of orthodoxy for these many centuries....but I always think of Eph. 4:14 when I interact with you on this level.

I'm not surprised. You go straight to the words of Paul and not our Master.