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All that is fine and good, but in the final analysis it's clear that absolutely demanding marriage as a requirement for a pastor is extra-Biblical.
Pastor's salaries/lifestyle.
- Thread starter ALAYMAN
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Who are you arguing with?
This reminds me of a joke:
A young monk was busy at his task of copying manuscripts, when the Abbot stopped by. Impressed by the stack of finished pages, he said, "Good work, Son."
"Thank you, father, and I think you'll find them accurate to the letter, but..." then he paused.
"What is it my son?"
"It's just that I have made some mistakes, sometimes at the very end of the page, and I must confess that I was very tempted to just leave them there, and not start all over on a new ones."
The Abbot smiled, "We've all been there."
The monk went on. "But what if the scribe, whose work I'm copying, wasn't as faithful? How do we know I'm not just copying his errors on the new manuscripts?"
"There's nothing to fear." the Abbot said reassuringly, "We have the oldest and most reliable manuscripts locked safely away in the vault beneath the monastery. If there's a question, we can do a comparison. To put your mind at ease, I'll take this very page and do one right now for you."
"Oh, thank you, Father!"
So the abbot disappeared while the young monk waited.
And waited.
And waited.
Impatient, the monk went to look for the old man. Grabbing a torch, he descended the dank and winding stairs to the vaults. At the bottom he could see a faint glow from the door of a cell down the long corridor. Approaching, he peered in and saw the old man with a lantern sitting among a pile of scattered scrolls and manuscripts weeping.
"Father! What is it?"
The old man looked up, jabbed at the page before him and cried, "The word is CELEBRATE!"
A young monk was busy at his task of copying manuscripts, when the Abbot stopped by. Impressed by the stack of finished pages, he said, "Good work, Son."
"Thank you, father, and I think you'll find them accurate to the letter, but..." then he paused.
"What is it my son?"
"It's just that I have made some mistakes, sometimes at the very end of the page, and I must confess that I was very tempted to just leave them there, and not start all over on a new ones."
The Abbot smiled, "We've all been there."
The monk went on. "But what if the scribe, whose work I'm copying, wasn't as faithful? How do we know I'm not just copying his errors on the new manuscripts?"
"There's nothing to fear." the Abbot said reassuringly, "We have the oldest and most reliable manuscripts locked safely away in the vault beneath the monastery. If there's a question, we can do a comparison. To put your mind at ease, I'll take this very page and do one right now for you."
"Oh, thank you, Father!"
So the abbot disappeared while the young monk waited.
And waited.
And waited.
Impatient, the monk went to look for the old man. Grabbing a torch, he descended the dank and winding stairs to the vaults. At the bottom he could see a faint glow from the door of a cell down the long corridor. Approaching, he peered in and saw the old man with a lantern sitting among a pile of scattered scrolls and manuscripts weeping.
"Father! What is it?"
The old man looked up, jabbed at the page before him and cried, "The word is CELEBRATE!"
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To some extent, both of you and huk. But in this instance, I'm stating that you are overreaching, claiming that the Bible requires qualifications that simply aren't there as an absolute.
Why do you conflate age with celibacy? Is it not possible for a 40 or 50 year old man to have never found the right one, and yet also to have worked his way up the ranks of ministry?
On the other hand, if he has been married, good leadership would be showing he has a solid marriage, children who are obedient, etc. If a man has a household in tatters, why should he be trusted with God’s house?
I do know that there have been sexual issues and sinning i n all churches, do to human nature and many times the pastor was set up as being almost like a god to his followers and allowed to do such sinning, but do not think has been a deminational effort like in Rome to keep sexual guilty predators out of jail and being allowed to move around to another church
Jesus did very well being single and celibate though, and Paul appeared to have been a widower when called as Apostle to the gentiles
I know many pastors who work 80-100 hours a week and consider themselves "on call" 24/7. I've NEVER really met a pastor who worked less than 80 hours a week.
No where did I say that it was absolute. I am saying that it is not good that the man should be alone.
Paul only said it was good only for the present distress, that is, because of the fierce persecution at the time, but even then, it was better to marry than to burn with lust.
Both you and Huk are denying the obvious. Huk, because of his infatuation with Catholicism, you probably because you haven't had to think it through.
Except for the presence of extraordinary gifts or circumstances, it is not good that the man should be alone. That should be the default position, and it's presumed in the list of qualifications.
LOL. I don't. However, where the embers are cooling, it becomes less of an issue.
Ordinarily, there's something amiss in a guy who hasn't been able to attract a mate by the age of 40, and certainly in one who seems to be that picky.
But is it possible? Anything's possible. But not normal.
So what will you do when your 45 year old single pastor starts dating? What if she's 25 or younger?
You have a cold and clinical view. The leadership qualities needed in a pastor are not merely evident, but are developed in a marriage. A man and wife must learn to love each other. They must learn to bring up the children (plural) God gave them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
It ain't easy, and a natural is rare.
Do you want your 40 or 50 year old pastor to enter the kindergarten class of marriage right in the middle of his ministry to you? What help can a man who's never been married be to you, that a book off the shelf at Barnes and Noble won't be?
Like the Widow Paroo said,
But, Darlin', when a woman has a husband, and you've got none,
Why should she take advice from you?
Even if you can quote Balzac and Shakespeare
And all them other high fallutin' Greeks!
Anyway, our little debate can be summed up as follows:God: It is not good that the man should be alone.
Ekk: I agree.
Huk: I don't see the problem.
All the more reason for an help meet for him.
Like I said, in the presence of extraordinary gifts and circumstances, celibacy is not a deal breaker.
Of course it’s not the norm. That’s the whole point of this conversation. It’s a hypothetical scenario in which a man devotes his life to the service of God and sacrifices his own earthly desires.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
James 1:27
I married into a family with above-average income, although they never flaunted it. My husband attended BJU in the 70's. His dad pointed out to him that the President of the college was wearing a very expensive suit.
I don't believe a pastor or his wife should have a large income, wear expensive suits, or drive a Mercedes. I live in a large, wealthy Southern city and have some experience in working on probate for pastors of large churches. The extreme wealth and assets of one pastor disappointed me greatly. The congregation is encouraged to give. I think that the pastor and his family should also quietly give to others if they have the funds.
I heard a sermon recently about Sam Houston. When he was baptized, he wanted his wallet to also be baptized.
James 1:27
I married into a family with above-average income, although they never flaunted it. My husband attended BJU in the 70's. His dad pointed out to him that the President of the college was wearing a very expensive suit.
I don't believe a pastor or his wife should have a large income, wear expensive suits, or drive a Mercedes. I live in a large, wealthy Southern city and have some experience in working on probate for pastors of large churches. The extreme wealth and assets of one pastor disappointed me greatly. The congregation is encouraged to give. I think that the pastor and his family should also quietly give to others if they have the funds.
I heard a sermon recently about Sam Houston. When he was baptized, he wanted his wallet to also be baptized.
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Well, that's not how I understood your previous posts, but it appears that we don't disagree all that much then.
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While I agree with you that a person's finances ought to be considered in the light of stewardship, it's a hard sell for me to go to the other extreme of saying don't drive a Mercedes or wear an expensive suit. To make an analogy that I'm sure that you understand, it's the step over the line that goes from saying that women should dress modest to they should only wear culottes. One statement is biblical, the other is legalistic.
I should rephrase my statement. I am more impressed when a rich man does not flaunt his riches. It's just a personal preference. I'm not legalistic about it.
As a side note, I worked for a man who owned a Mercedes that had to have constant and expensive repairs. He finally sold it and never drove a Mercedes again. I think he bought a BMW instead.
I like the approach of Sam Waldon, founder of Walmart and worth billions at that time, he still drove old blazer, and still lived in his old farmhouse.
In fact, one day drove into town and asked a cashier to cash 10000 check of his, and she had to ask manager if could, as based upon his vehicle and way he dressed, seemed to be poor person
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and his company ran thousands of small mom and pop stores out of business all over the country by under cutting them in prices..... then as soon as walmart was the only store in town he started raising the prices to a higher level than the old mom and pop stores charged....... .... when i think about people like him a camel and the eye of a needle come to mind..... ... and there;s nothing about him i like or admire...... the image of himself he cultivated was fake..... . not an approach i would want to follow....
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most rich people i know of here don;t ever take their car for repairs or even buy a new set of tires for it.... on the first break down or sign of tire wear they just get rid of it and buy another car...... ...... it sounds like something to be in awe of until you realize they do that with their wives too......