Patriotism

[subllibrm]

UPFRONT: I'm proud to be American, and I feel incredibly blessed/fortunate to have been born here and to have had the opportunities I've had as a result.

This America may someday be a nation that rounds up Christians for hate-speech or other crimes against the state.

Strong disapproval of your speech does not equal being rounded up for it. Look at the Free Speech decisions coming out of the Supreme Court the last few years. Fred Phelps, by an 8-1 decision, is allowed to come to the funeral of a man or woman who died in service to his or her country and spew his vitriolic, by-any-reasonable-definition hate speech, with zero legal consequences.

So while the culture at large might not like your speech about abortion or homosexuality, and may even label it hate speech, and while you might be ostracized from "polite society" for holding the views you do, we're much, much farther away than you think from the scenario you describe.

To quote one of those Southern Gospel groups (the Steeles I think) "I love America, but I do not love what she has become".  My loyalty ultimately is to Christ, and I'm sure you feel the same.

America, believe it or not, has always been a country of fallen human beings. Thus, the sentiment expressed in the Steeles' quote is, in my opinion, misguided. Do they love the America that enslaved Africans? That slaughtered Indians? That segregated itself? That put on a cloak of self-righteousness and kept under wraps the sexual sins of its leaders (Jefferson, Clinton, FDR, Kennedy)?

America has never been pure neither has it ever been purely evil. Our sin merely expresses itself in different ways at different times. So too does our reflection, imperfect though it is, of His Image.

While rounded up may be a stretch, the courts have shown a willingness to force compliance with the currently in favor world views.

I own a t-shirt company. As it stands right now, if two gay men came to me to make shirts for their bachelor party in advance of their "wedding" the courts say I must provide that service. The gay lobby is not content with me merely being "ostracized" they want my business ruined and will use the courts to do it.

So who hates whom?

 

[ddgently]

While rounded up may be a stretch, the courts have shown a willingness to force compliance with the currently in favor world views.

Such was always thus. Ask those who were forced to integrate their lunch counters, or offer hotel rooms to African-Americans, in spite of their objections, often couched in their religious beliefs.

NOTE: I anticipate the, "But they were wrong about that!" defense. Nothing doing. Note Justice Alito's recent observation in the Hobby Lobby case that the Court will not inquire into the validity of someone's belief. So from a legal perspective, it doesn't matter if you're mangling scripture to justify your actions.

I own a t-shirt company. As it stands right now, if two gay men came to me to make shirts for their bachelor party in advance of their "wedding" the courts say I must provide that service. The gay lobby is not content with me merely being "ostracized" they want my business ruined and will use the courts to do it.

Has a t-shirt case reached an appellate court yet? I'm not sure that it has. I think that's a bit different than the lunch counter or hotel situation. I don't think you could be forced, to make a "F*** THE POLICE" shirt, for example, or "I DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU" shirt.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Segregation was and is wrong and evil, but it has all but disappeared in our society today.
I believe our country has righted itself of these evils.

Actually, it hasn't, it has now turned its attention to the Hispanics coming from South America.
Sounds like you have been listening to a lot of Billy Sunday

Segregation is everywhere.  It's just self-imposed. 

I seem to recall a news story from not too long ago where a black community rejected a new Trader Joe's because they said it would attract white people and raise property values. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

Yeah, racism is still prevalent in our society. It is a condition of the human heart, that will never change.
As for the "Patriotism" aspect of this. I started growing tired of the Sundays where we would spend half the services on Memorial Day and Veterans Day saluting our military and keeping the focus in the Good Ole' USA and not focusing on Christ. It's idolatry, plain and simple.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Segregation was and is wrong and evil, but it has all but disappeared in our society today.
I believe our country has righted itself of these evils.

Actually, it hasn't, it has now turned its attention to the Hispanics coming from South America.
Sounds like you have been listening to a lot of Billy Sunday

Segregation is everywhere.  It's just self-imposed. 

I seem to recall a news story from not too long ago where a black community rejected a new Trader Joe's because they said it would attract white people and raise property values.

That's happened a couple of times. Happened earlier this year in Greensboro, NC.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

 

[Recovering IFB]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

I like living here, but that's about it. I wouldn't give my life for it. If that's what you would do, fine. But I think as believers, are only allegiance is to Christ, alone. Everything else is idolatry.

 

[16KJV11]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

I like living here, but that's about it. I wouldn't give my life for it. If that's what you would do, fine. But I think as believers, are only allegiance is to Christ, alone. Everything else is idolatry.

Wow, thank God there were thousands who were willing to give up their lives for our country, or we'd all be speaking Deutsch. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

I like living here, but that's about it. I wouldn't give my life for it. If that's what you would do, fine. But I think as believers, are only allegiance is to Christ, alone. Everything else is idolatry.

Are you a pacifist?

 

[16KJV11]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

I like living here, but that's about it. I wouldn't give my life for it. If that's what you would do, fine. But I think as believers, are only allegiance is to Christ, alone. Everything else is idolatry.

Wow, thank God there were thousands who were willing to give up their lives for our country, or we'd all be speaking Deutsch.

If someone were to come into my house and threaten my family, I'd FIGHT to preserve their lives. 

 

[subllibrm]

Has a t-shirt case reached an appellate court yet? I'm not sure that it has. I think that's a bit different than the lunch counter or hotel situation. I don't think you could be forced, to make a "F*** THE POLICE" shirt, for example, or "I DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU" shirt.

No it hasn't. But since my business would fall under the concept of public accommodation, why would I have any more right to reject such work than the baker or photographer that have already been hit by the gay lobby train?

And your examples would "bolster" their case. If I were to make you a shirt that says "I Love Jesus" what would be legally acceptable grounds for refusing to make one that says "I Hate Jesus" for an atheist?

 

[subllibrm]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

Let me open the door a  little more then.

Is there any biblical position to be taken regarding the display of the American flag in the church. Specifically the auditorium/sanctuary where worship services are held?

This issue is being debated within my church right now.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

Let me open the door a  little more then.

Is there any biblical position to be taken regarding the display of the American flag in the church. Specifically the auditorium/sanctuary where worship services are held?

This issue is being debated within my church right now.

Personally, I don't think so.
You have people in your congregation with too much time on their hands, IMO.

We're debating whether to start a third service....displaying the flag has never been mentioned in the past 35+ years. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Yeah, racism is still prevalent in our society. It is a condition of the human heart, that will never change.
As for the "Patriotism" aspect of this. I started growing tired of the Sundays where we would spend half the services on Memorial Day and Veterans Day saluting our military and keeping the focus in the Good Ole' USA and not focusing on Christ. It's idolatry, plain and simple.

Your town or city ever had a 4th of July celebration?
Memorial or Veterans Day celebration or recognition?
God bless America!
God bless Budweiser!
God bless the former but still obsessed Fundy's!

Glory!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I like living here, but that's about it. I wouldn't give my life for it. If that's what you would do, fine. But I think as believers, are only allegiance is to Christ, alone. Everything else is idolatry.

Are you a pacifist?

You misspelled taxpayer!
I thought loon a bit harsh....

 

[subllibrm]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

Let me open the door a  little more then.

Is there any biblical position to be taken regarding the display of the American flag in the church. Specifically the auditorium/sanctuary where worship services are held?

This issue is being debated within my church right now.

Personally, I don't think so.
You have people in your congregation with too much time on their hands, IMO.

We're debating whether to start a third service....displaying the flag has never been mentioned in the past 35+ years. 

Worse, we have someone so convinced of the impropriety of flags (idols) that they mysteriously "disappeared" on purpose. Not looking for ward to that part of the elder's meeting tonight.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

Let me open the door a  little more then.

Is there any biblical position to be taken regarding the display of the American flag in the church. Specifically the auditorium/sanctuary where worship services are held?

This issue is being debated within my church right now.

Personally, I don't think so.
You have people in your congregation with too much time on their hands, IMO.

We're debating whether to start a third service....displaying the flag has never been mentioned in the past 35+ years. 

Worse, we have someone so convinced of the impropriety of flags (idols) that they mysteriously "disappeared" on purpose. Not looking for ward to that part of the elder's meeting tonight.

It is sad that we sometimes have to deal with dumb issues instead of what Christ called us to do.

Sounds like (non) Recovering IFB could be a member of your congregation. 

 

[subllibrm]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

Let me open the door a  little more then.

Is there any biblical position to be taken regarding the display of the American flag in the church. Specifically the auditorium/sanctuary where worship services are held?

This issue is being debated within my church right now.

Personally, I don't think so.
You have people in your congregation with too much time on their hands, IMO.

We're debating whether to start a third service....displaying the flag has never been mentioned in the past 35+ years. 

Worse, we have someone so convinced of the impropriety of flags (idols) that they mysteriously "disappeared" on purpose. Not looking for ward to that part of the elder's meeting tonight.

It is sad that we sometimes have to deal with dumb issues instead of what Christ called us to do.

Sounds like (non) Recovering IFB could be a member of your congregation. 

Funny thing is that this person would easily be considered a freebird here (big Lecrae fan) and "hates" legalism. I have been praying for an opening to note the disconnect there in a gracious way.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Actually, we aren't talking about patriotism per se...but again bashing the fundys for having a patriotic theme to some of their services, right?

Because there is NOTHING wrong with a love for one's country, even if the fundy's love it too!

Just want to hold to the theme of the thread....

I like living here, but that's about it. I wouldn't give my life for it. If that's what you would do, fine. But I think as believers, are only allegiance is to Christ, alone. Everything else is idolatry.

Wow, thank God there were thousands who were willing to give up their lives for our country, or we'd all be speaking Deutsch.

And guess what? We would still have to go share the Gospel! Biblical principles would still stand if it was German, Russian or Islam.

 

[Recovering IFB]

I like living here, but that's about it. I wouldn't give my life for it. If that's what you would do, fine. But I think as believers, are only allegiance is to Christ, alone. Everything else is idolatry.

Are you a pacifist?

Depends, to what degree?