Paul vs Jesus

[Baptist Renegade]

I see that you are FB friends with both SC & grannylo.

What is grannylo's name on FB? PM me if you'd rather.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

It's funny . I left fundamentalism in 1999. But the true, good, foundational moorings of fundamentalism, I never left. Love for the Bible. Staunch defense of the cardinal doctrines of the faith. Complementarianism, Inerrancy, and a conservative approach to cultural engagement are some of them. I pray, almost every day, that God would enable me to not fall into the trap of becoming a Pharisee again.

Amen bro!

As my sig line says, I am "More Independent, More Fundamental, and More Baptist than Ever Before" except now for all of the right reasons! The "Pseudo-Fundamentalist IFBx Crowd" are a bunch of liberal, Bible-rejecting apostates as far as I am concerned and you can feel free to tell them I said so! I still have my King James Bible. The difference is the last few years or so, I have actually started seriously reading and studying what has been written therein!

 

[subllibrm]

I’m in on the granny lo thread as well. Until reading this I didn’t know it was smellin that I was talking to.

FWIW I had the pleasure of meeting her in person a few years ago. It was right after the breakup with pulpiteer. We have had a number of conversations publicly and privately through FB. Definitely a pendulum swing going on.

 

[subllibrm]

Has she bought into progressive theology?

Yes, or at least renting it out for a test drive.

Usually the drive to undermine Paul's apostolic authority and set him against Jesus comes from a lax tolerance toward some specific sin that Paul addressed but Jesus didn't, such as homosexuality.

May I quote this comment on that thread? I can leave your name out of it.

(As you would expect, since Paul's purpose in writing was to address specific issues arising in the church.)

This has been where my mind has been working. What would the church look like if all we had was the teachings from Jesus?

 

[Ransom]

May I quote this comment on that thread? I can leave your name out of it.

Sure, if you wish. (Though it's an awkward phrase; I've expressed myself more clearly.)

What would the church look like if all we had was the teachings from Jesus?

I would guess much the same, but without the letters of Paul, possibly a lot more loosey-goosey with the systematic theology. And with respect to practice, maybe stricter in some places, but more latitudinarian in others. Imagine, hypothetically, a church with a greater number of ethical vegetarians because Paul never said it was OK to eat meat that might have been sacrificed to an idol. Or a female bishop who was part of a polygynous household, because Paul never laid out stricter qualifications for church elders.

(Edit: After a few more minutes thought, I wonder whether our approach to theology might be more like Judaism or Islam: having a relatively small set of inspired writings--the Gospels, in addition to the OT--plus a larger collection of more or less authoritative commentaries along the lines of the Talmud or Hadith. Which makes me wonder whether the East/West and Catholic/Protestant schisms would have happened, and what if anything would have taken their place. Imagine, for example, that the Great Schism of 1054 never happened because we already had something like Augustinian and Jeromian Schools of Christianity.)

Jesus hand-picked his apostles, including Paul, to spread and establish the church. His teachings are a broad framework; the apostles had his authority to definitively interpret them. Jesus forbade divorce and remarriage other than for immorality; it was Paul who told us what that means in specific cases like widowhood or desertion.

 

[aleshanee]

i don;t believe the church would be any different today if all we had of a new testament was the 4 gospels and the words of Jesus.... .and i completely disagree with those who claim Jesus and paul taught contradictory things....

but one of the things i noticed about the people following the current red letter only movement - is that they all seem to be former fundamentalist extremists who became disallusioned with it and left....(at least the ones i know personally are).... and i find it interesting - though not in the least bit compelling.. that the same people who once justified hyper legalism by misinterpreting paul, are now trying to justify hyper liberalism by misinterpretting Jesus..

the only thing consistent about them other than their extreme self assuredness is that they view those of us who haven;t flip flopped in the faith with the same disdain now as they viewed us back then.... ....

 

[Gringo]

.
Years ago on this forum there was a poster by the name of Garza. And he said something that I agree with but don't abide by sometimes. He said that one's post should be short and succinct. The longer the post, the easier it is to miss the jest of the post. And so, unrelated to my next post, I just want to say that the gay community (forget all of those stupid letters) has done itself in. And it has caused so much MORE hatred to itself by the irresponsible way it is acting, affirming that seemingly, all of those stereotypes are indeed, true (but many aren't). But if people are going to start boycotting due to a lack of morality, don't buy anything from any store.
.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Years ago on this forum there was a poster by the name of Garza. And he said something that I agree with but don't abide by sometimes. He said that one's post should be short and succinct.

I agree, though most of my posts are short due to time and posting on a phone. I only use my laptop for work purposes and I refuse to sit at a desktop like it’s the year 1998.

And so, unrelated to my next post, I just want to say that the gay community (forget all of those stupid letters) has done itself in. And it has caused so much MORE hatred to itself by the irresponsible way it is acting, affirming that seemingly, all of those stereotypes are indeed, true (but many aren't).

I have financially boycotted (and continue to do so in some cases) several companies for several reasons, none to do with anything “gay related.” For example, when Nike endorsed Colin Kaepernick and he began running around with police pig socks, my Nike purchases came to a halt. With Target, it was related to the bathroom issue years ago. Pretty much every big company has something I agree and disagree with, but I try to put my money towards companies that either represent my values most closely or just stay neutral and serve customers without an agenda, which is my first preference.

 

[Gringo]

"I refuse to sit at a desktop like it’s the year 1998."
​

Dr HukNduck,

If an issue is very important to you, I certainly understand your reasoning. About that desktop . . . I too have a laptop and a tablet and a phone but I have seriously been thinking of getting myself a desk and putting a large flat screen television screen on it and hooking up my computer - that and a reclining office chair that I could lean back in and prop my feet up on the desk with a wireless mouse in my lap. I think it'd be fun . . .

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

"I refuse to sit at a desktop like it’s the year 1998."
​

Dr HukNduck,

If an issue is very important to you, I certainly understand your reasoning. About that desktop . . . I too have a laptop and a tablet and a phone but I have seriously been thinking of getting myself a desk and putting a large flat screen television screen on it and hooking up my computer - that and a reclining office chair that I could lean back in and prop my feet up on the desk with a wireless mouse in my lap. I think it'd be fun . . .

Although I like the sound of “Doctor,” feel free to just call me Huk. The type of doctorate I have isn’t a PhD or MD.

 

[Gringo]

i don;t believe the church would be any different today if all we had of a new testament was the 4 gospels and the words of Jesus.... .and i completely disagree with those who claim Jesus and paul taught contradictory things....

but one of the things i noticed about the people following the current red letter only movement - is that they all seem to be former fundamentalist extremists who became disallusioned with it and left....(at least the ones i know personally are).... and i find it interesting - though not in the least bit compelling.. that the same people who once justified hyper legalism by misinterpreting paul, are now trying to justify hyper liberalism by misinterpretting Jesus..

the only thing consistent about them other than their extreme self assuredness is that they view those of us who haven;t flip flopped in the faith with the same disdain now as they viewed us back then.... ....

.

I have had dinner with Smelling Coffee. He's a kind man and speaking from experience, I'm sure he's had some unsettling times as he has wrestled with what he does and does not believe.

I am not a follower of "the current red letter only movement" and I don't see the value or wisdom in trying to change the Bible to fit modern day society and its culture. It says what it says.

Over the course of several years in my young adult years, just like with Lord Bertrand Russell (the famed British mathematician), I slowly began to realize that I simply did not believe what I thought I believed. This realization for him, was in his teens. For me, it was in my early 20's. We were both raised in the church. Because of the way the brain is inextricably connected to a dying body and is dependent on oxygen for its very survival, like him, I realized that I am not convinced that there is life after death. And so, that realization rendered useless to me the dogmas that I was taught as a child. I say that to say that I have absolutely no disdain for any believer especially those of you who haven't wavered in your belief and haven't "flip flopped". I may envy you a little but I don't have disdain for you.

The challenge is for y'all not to have disdain for those of us who lack your faith.

My inablility to have the faith that y'all do does not lessen the faith that y'all have and I'm happy that y'all can live your lives confident in your beliefs.

.

 

[Gringo]

Although I like the sound of “Doctor,” feel free to just call me Huk. The type of doctorate I have isn’t a PhD or MD.

Huk,

I thought you were serious about a Ph.D in Hebrew linguistics so I was paying you the respect you deserved. I have a friend who has an ND. We call her Dr and besides, I like the way Dr HuckNDuck sounds.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Huk,

I thought you were serious about a Ph.D in Hebrew linguistics so I was paying you the respect you deserved. I have a friend who has an ND. We call her Dr and besides, I like the way Dr HuckNDuck sounds.

Then free to call me doctor.

 

[Ekklesian]

What would the church look like if all we had was the teachings from Jesus?

There wouldn't be a church. The Holy City has twelve foundations, each having the name of an Apostle. And in that City, are twelve thrones, from which the Twelve rule. (See also Ephesians 2:19-22).

All the New Testament is the writing of disciples of Jesus. His teachings came to no one directly, except to the Apostles and the Prophets. What we have in the Gospels are Christ's teachings as applied by the Evangelists. It's easy to think that the red letters are somehow bypassing the Apostolic channels.

 

[aleshanee]

.

I have had dinner with Smelling Coffee. He's a kind man and speaking from experience, I'm sure he's had some unsettling times as he has wrestled with what he does and does not believe.

I am not a follower of "the current red letter only movement" and I don't see the value or wisdom in trying to change the Bible to fit modern day society and its culture. It says what it says.

Over the course of several years in my young adult years, just like with Lord Bertrand Russell (the famed British mathematician), I slowly began to realize that I simply did not believe what I thought I believed. This realization for him, was in his teens. For me, it was in my early 20's. We were both raised in the church. Because of the way the brain is inextricably connected to a dying body and is dependent on oxygen for its very survival, like him, I realized that I am not convinced that there is life after death. And so, that realization rendered useless to me the dogmas that I was taught as a child. I say that to say that I have absolutely no disdain for any believer especially those of you who haven't wavered in your belief and haven't "flip flopped". I may envy you a little but I don't have disdain for you.

The challenge is for y'all not to have disdain for those of us who lack your faith.

My inablility to have the faith that y'all do does not lessen the faith that y'all have and I'm happy that y'all can live your lives confident in your beliefs.

hmmmmmm ... i don;t believe i mentioned smellin coffee..... ... nope... pretty sure i didn;t... . but while i did have a few former ifbx members of the forum in mind while reading this thread... we actually have people in our own family who have done what i described.... and who showed immense disdain for us while they were practicing extreme legalism... claiming we were too liberal for them... ... and have even more disadain for us now since they have begun practicing woke liberlal leftism... to the point that they have even written us off as racists and want nothing else to do with us.....

but since you mentioned smellin coffee i will say that when i first joined the old forum in 2004 i got along with smellin coffee very well.... and continued to get along with him even as his ideology and postings became more and more progressive and leftward leaning.... ...i don;t have access to facebook so i have no idea what the smellin coffee of today is like but a few years ago he had gone to the point here of suggesting young people could be identified as gay if they had certain physical traits or certain body builds... as well as certain personality types...... i looked for the specific post but couldn;t find it.. but that same line of subjective thought is what the extreme left uses today to try and justify what they want to do to children in the public school system against their parents wishes...

i don;t have disdain for anyone simply because they lack faith... or have a different faith.... or even no faith at all.... if i did i wouldn;t be involved in a homeless ministry trying to reach them.... . but i do have disdain for those who promote and endorse the open practice of lifestyles that scripture calls disdainful..... especially when they are promoting such things to children.... however i am not accusing anyone on this forum or the fff on facebook of doing that.... ... in fact i believe i have seen everyone on the forum so far... present company included... speak out against it.....

 

[Gringo]

.
I mentioned SC because he was the subject in the start of the thread.

What a great thing you are doing with the homeless ministry. I don't know the degree of severity on the islands but way back here on the homeland in Georgia (of all places), we have a problem with it. We've found people sleeping in our stairwells, in the parking lot etc. Just down the street is a small park with a wooded area and there are people that live there. One night (seriously) I was taking a walk and I was walking past The Residence Inn and there was a large bush. I heard people talking and I glanced at the bush and saw a light from a cellphone from inside the bush. There were people hid inside the bush. The cost of living has SKYROCETTED here in Atlanta. The same apartment that my friend paid 900 for year before last, he now pays 1500 for. It's getting really concerning.

I have an acquaintance that has a ministry where he gets men off of the streets. He houses them (roommate stye) and gives them a job. He owns a used clothing pick up business where he goes all over the city and picks up used clothing and he sells it in his thrift store. He has a call center where he puts these men and women to work. He requires them to go to the gym, to take a finanacial management course that he runs, to go to church etc. He's doing a good job.

I wish you the best in your efforts at the ministry.

 

[aleshanee]

what you described all sounds very familiar.....it;s been like that for a long time here... and it;s worse now than ever before... and more dangerous too due to a much more violent kind of homeless being out there... lots more showing up from the u.s. mainland who were given the choice of jail or a free ticket to hawaii if they promised to never return..... (it;s a story we hear from differents new ones all the time).... . ..

not only do they make it more dangerous but new laws were passed making giving food to people on the street illegal... so we seldom do the ministry the way we use to... ... ... and now days we focus more on homeless women with children - which we were also doing anyway even before we got into the ministry to chronic homeless .... the women and childrens part was always more complicated and involves more people and more structure than the chronic homeless ministry does.... but it doesn;t have to be coordinated with police like the ministry to get trafficked teenagers off the street does.... ..i still help out with that one too now and then - but not as often... ....

 

[Gringo]

.

I have had dinner with Smelling Coffee. He's a kind man and speaking from experience, I'm sure he's had some unsettling times as he has wrestled with what he does and does not believe.

I am not a follower of "the current red letter only movement" and I don't see the value or wisdom in trying to change the Bible to fit modern day society and its culture. It says what it says.

Over the course of several years in my young adult years, just like with Lord Bertrand Russell (the famed British mathematician), I slowly began to realize that I simply did not believe what I thought I believed. This realization for him, was in his teens. For me, it was in my early 20's. We were both raised in the church. Because of the way the brain is inextricably connected to a dying body and is dependent on oxygen for its very survival, like him, I realized that I am not convinced that there is life after death. And so, that realization rendered useless to me the dogmas that I was taught as a child. I say that to say that I have absolutely no disdain for any believer especially those of you who haven't wavered in your belief and haven't "flip flopped". I may envy you a little but I don't have disdain for you.

The challenge is for y'all not to have disdain for those of us who lack your faith.

My inablility to have the faith that y'all do does not lessen the faith that y'all have and I'm happy that y'all can live your lives confident in your beliefs.

.

I started to start a new thread but decided to ask this here, instead. I don't even know if anyone will see it this far down in this thread.
But I have a thought to run by anyone reading this:
My main problem with belief is that it just doesn't seem probable to me that we survive death and the death of the brain, wherein we exist.
Isn't it possible that the Bible backs up this as well? Hear me out:

There are several passages in the Bible referring to people after death who "sleep" . We are told that Moses "slept with the fathers'.
And even in the New Testament, speaking of Christ's return, Paul tells us that the dead in Christ shall "rise first". Why will the dead rise up from the grave if they are already up in Heaven?

When John tells us that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life, doesn't that infer that those who do NOT believe in Christ will perish and NOT have everlasting LIFE?

So what I'm asking you to think about is: isn't it more probable that the Bible teaches that everyone DIES upon death and do not continue to live in Heaven OR Hell UNLESS they put their trust in Christ, HIs death and resurrection and it is THEY that will live forever.

I don't think the Bible teaches that one will LIVE without having faith in Christ and therefore I don't believe the Bible teaches that those who did not have faith will live anyway and be conscious in a lake of fire.

I was always taught that I must put my faith in Christ and that upon death, I would live in Heaven and that if I didn't have faith, I STILL would live but that I would live in hell. And yet, John says only those who put their faith in Christ will have everlasting LIFE.

??? (don't fuss at me, please)

 

[abcaines]

I'm not a linguist but I believe the distinction is between living and existence. Rember, English is a weird language. Being alive in Him is life; living. Existing apart from Him is death. Death in this case is separation from God, not no longer existing. While our bodies exist, we are alive, yet we are dead in our trespasses and sins if we haven't been born again. We are born again when we put our faith in Christ's redemptive work ("believe" which is another linguistic can of worms). At that point, we are made alive in Him.

Little wonder that without faith it is impossible to please Him. There are so many things that cannot be explained by mere words that we need to put our faith in Him.

This is barely a scratch on the surface of probably one of the most profound questions ever asked on this forum. I'm going to let others have a Crack at this because my mind is by trying to answer your question.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I started to start a new thread but decided to ask this here, instead. I don't even know if anyone will see it this far down in this thread.
But I have a thought to run by anyone reading this:
My main problem with belief is that it just doesn't seem probable to me that we survive death and the death of the brain, wherein we exist.
Isn't it possible that the Bible backs up this as well? Hear me out:

There are several passages in the Bible referring to people after death who "sleep" . We are told that Moses "slept with the fathers'.
And even in the New Testament, speaking of Christ's return, Paul tells us that the dead in Christ shall "rise first". Why will the dead rise up from the grave if they are already up in Heaven?

When John tells us that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life, doesn't that infer that those who do NOT believe in Christ will perish and NOT have everlasting LIFE?

So what I'm asking you to think about is: isn't it more probable that the Bible teaches that everyone DIES upon death and do not continue to live in Heaven OR Hell UNLESS they put their trust in Christ, HIs death and resurrection and it is THEY that will live forever.

I don't think the Bible teaches that one will LIVE without having faith in Christ and therefore I don't believe the Bible teaches that those who did not have faith will live anyway and be conscious in a lake of fire.

I was always taught that I must put my faith in Christ and that upon death, I would live in Heaven and that if I didn't have faith, I STILL would live but that I would live in hell. And yet, John says only those who put their faith in Christ will have everlasting LIFE.

??? (don't fuss at me, please)

The fact of the resurrection is well attested in the New Testament. So those passages that deal with sleep speak to the notion that the human being is comprised of more than one component (physical and spiritual, body and soul....some people believe in a tripartite combination of body, soul, and spirit). At our physical body's death the spirit related to that body immediately comes into the presence of God (absent from the body 2 Cor 5:8). It is at some point later in our existence that the <dead..."sleeping"> body will be reunited with the soul, and Christian orthodoxy teaches that not only will the Christian be resurrected but the unbelieving will also be resurrected unto an appointment with final judgment and eternal separation from God. You can read that interpretive scheme here.