Re-rethinking the sinner's prayer

[Anchor]

For as long as I have been associated with this forum in all its various manifestations the matter of what has been labeled as "The Sinner's Prayer" has been a frequent topic.  As is common in our current evangelical culture the majority view has been that which is so frequently verbalized by Paul Washer and others like him which can be seen here:
War On The Sinner's Prayer by Paul Washer

I understand where Washer and others are coming from. There were abuses aplenty in the reckless evangelism of the 70's and 80's which produced an abundance of professions without much apparent lasting fruit. Particularly abused was the prescribed prayer (i.e., "pray something like this..."). But reacting to abuses does not necessarily produce proper biblical action.

The approach Washer and others have come to of throwing out all vestiges of words/prayer in the conversion process seems a bit drastic.  Numerous passages reference asking in true conversion  experiences--the thief on the cross and the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee to name a couple. 

Furthermore there appears to be at least one passage that offers a prescribed prayer as the step to true repentance. Hosea 14:1-3 gives the inspired prescription to the sinning Israelites in calling them to repentance--"Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, For you have stumbled because of your iniquity. Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to Him, 'Take away all iniquity And receive us graciously, That we may present the fruit of our lips. Assyria will not save us, We will not ride on horses; Nor will we say again, "Our god," To the work of our hands; For in You the orphan finds mercy.'” (NASB)

As I stated, I fully appreciate the issue that Washer, et. al., are reacting to.  I just think they need to be more careful in voicing their reactions in light of the whole of Scripture truth. 

Thoughts?

 

[Vince Massi]

Some years ago, I rejected the doctrine that a person is saved by saying the words "Jesus, please save me," and meaning it. Salvation is obtained by completely accepting Christ, and that total acceptance includes repentance of sin.

 

[T-Bone]

Some years ago, I rejected the doctrine that a person is saved by saying the words "Jesus, please save me," and meaning it. Salvation is obtained by completely accepting Christ, and that total acceptance includes repentance of sin.

Not sure I agree with you here...the Lord knows the heart and it is much more important than the words. The thief on the cross just trusted Jesus.

 

[Vince Massi]

Sorry, T-Bone. I didn't explain myself properly.

The doctrine, as taught at HAC, was that if the person said "Jesus, please save me," with no intention of turning from sin, and with no intention of allowing Jesus to be his Lord, he would still be saved if he meant the prayer. In other words, he wanted to be saved from the penalty of sin, while still keeping the sin.

He wanted Jesus to be his Savior from penalty, but not from sin itself. He had every intention of continuing in his Christ-rejecting life, but without a penalty.

I no longer believe that doctrine.

 

[T-Bone]

Sorry, T-Bone. I didn't explain myself properly.

The doctrine, as taught at HAC, was that if the person said "Jesus, please save me," with no intention of turning from sin, and with no intention of allowing Jesus to be his Lord, he would still be saved if he meant the prayer. In other words, he wanted to be saved from the penalty of sin, while still keeping the sin.

He wanted Jesus to be his Savior from penalty, but not from sin itself. He had every intention of continuing in his Christ-rejecting life, but without a penalty.

I no longer believe that doctrine.

Gotcha...thanks for clarification ...that was why I said "I am not sure..."  Now I am sure, I agree with what you have stated!

 

[Anchor]

...

Not sure I agree with you here...the Lord knows the heart and it is much more important than the words. The thief on the cross just trusted Jesus.

The thief on the cross "...said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." The mechanic utilized here for acquiring salvation was words in the form of a request (a prayer asking Jesus to save him, if you please). 

My question in this whole debate of praying to be saved, whether a prescribed prayer or other, is, if prayer is not a meaningful mechanic, what is?  Acquiring salvation is not  passive.

 

[subllibrm]

Interestingly, John MacArthur found himself in hot water when he reacted to easy believism by insisting that there would be noticable/notable change in the life of a believer. His construct was that in surrender to Jesus as Lord, change would surely follow. Of course the result was to call him a heretic for making salvation conditional and calling his position "lordship salvation". In effect a reaction to his reaction.

When I hear people share their salvation story/journey, I am listening for evidence of change. The exact route they take to get there is much less important than that a changed(ing) life is evident. That said, I can't remember a single person who did not have some incident of prayer that was part of their narrative. One of the best things in life is hearing people share their faith story.

Of course there are some pretty poor versions. The worst I ever heard was "me and the man upstairs have an understanding".

 

[Anchor]

Interestingly, John MacArthur found himself in hot water when he reacted to easy believism by insisting that there would be noticable/notable change in the life of a believer. His construct was that in surrender to Jesus as Lord, change would surely follow. Of course the result was to call him a heretic for making salvation conditional and calling his position "lordship salvation". In effect a reaction to his reaction.

When I hear people share their salvation story/journey, I am listening for evidence of change. The exact route they take to get there is much less important than that a changed(ing) life is evident. That said, I can't remember a single person who did not have some incident of prayer that was part of their narrative. One of the best things in life is hearing people share their faith story.

...

A timely observation in light of this discussion. 

 

[T-Bone]

...

Not sure I agree with you here...the Lord knows the heart and it is much more important than the words. The thief on the cross just trusted Jesus.

The thief on the cross "...said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." The mechanic utilized here for acquiring salvation was words in the form of a request (a prayer asking Jesus to save him, if you please). 

My question in this whole debate of praying to be saved, whether a prescribed prayer or other, is, if prayer is not a meaningful mechanic, what is?  Acquiring salvation is not  passive.

I believe prayer is an important part...response is required and I believe that could be verbal or from the heart, both would fit into the definition of prayer.  Response is required...specific verbage is not.

 

[Prin.Ciples]

Belief is the beginning of a process that includes a overwhelming sense of self awareness. A self awareness of a Eternal need and the revelation of self guilt. The preaching of repentance loses its focus unless we believe. Our message isn't repent. Its believe the record God gave of His Son. Believe that God gave Himself for OUR sin.

Its been my experience that its not diffifcult to get someone to say they are sorry or feel as if they have done SOMETHING wrong. The issue is what they really believe about God, and then, themselves through God's eyes. Its rather rare to find such a sincere reflect among those who claim the name of Christ. It involves a total abandoning of one own self identifty and persona to embrace just how God sees every person apart from Christ. This only takes place in the convicting/convincing power of the Holy Spirit. If you would.... the "wooing of the Holy Spirit". This takes place after a person believes. Not before.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Belief is the beginning of a process that includes a overwhelming sense of self awareness. A self awareness of a Eternal need and the revelation of self guilt. The preaching of repentance loses its focus unless we believe. Our message isn't repent. Its believe the record God gave of His Son. Believe that God gave Himself for OUR sin.

Its been my experience that its not diffifcult to get someone to say they are sorry or feel as if they have done SOMETHING wrong. The issue is what they really believe about God, and then, themselves through God's eyes. Its rather rare to find such a sincere reflect among those who claim the name of Christ. It involves a total abandoning of one own self identifty and persona to embrace just how God sees every person apart from Christ. This only takes place in the convicting/convincing power of the Holy Spirit. If you would.... the "wooing of the Holy Spirit". This takes place after a person believes. Not before.

I agree generally with what are saying except the underlined.

So, yes repentance and belief are tightly tied together, one might say two sides of the same coin, but repentance results in belief, not the other way around. Knowledge and conviction result in repentance which results in belief. I also agree with T-Bone, that belief must be accompanied by "prayer". An asking, a cry out to God, as opposed to knowing and understanding all the facts, even to the point of conviction but stopping there.

Knowledge
Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
and
Conviction
John 16:8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
result in belief
Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
which results in calling on him.
Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[Vince Massi]

Brethren, I got saved reading a printed prayer. The problem isn't with prayer.

I really did repent, and I really did accept Christ. The problem is with repeating words with no intention of repenting, with a rejection of Christ as Lord, with a determination to continue in a life of sin, and with a desire only to escape the penalty of that sin.

 

[Biblebeliever]

I believe that "a sinner's prayer" will work for salvation as long as that sinner has come to a state of genuine repentance before God. Because once he has repented, then he is already ready for salvation.

And of course I have heard that it is not necessarily the prayer that saves the sinner, but rather it is by faith in the blood of Jesus to how they get saved.

In other words, they are saved the moment they believe and trust on Christ for salvation. The so called "sinner's prayer" is just an immediate fruit of their genuine conversion which follows after salvation.

 

[Prin.Ciples]

So, yes repentance and belief are tightly tied together, one might say two sides of the same coin, but repentance results in belief, not the other way around. Knowledge and conviction result in repentance which results in belief. I also agree with T-Bone, that belief must be accompanied by "prayer". An asking, a cry out to God, as opposed to knowing and understanding all the facts, even to the point of conviction but stopping there.

Absolute.... utter nonsense.

Repentance is granted. Read the story of Esau. Read Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25 and Hebrews 12:17.  Just how in the world can you repent of something you do not believe???? and don't play word games with knowledge and belief. Belief is knowledge applied.

Prayer is our confession. To quote your own references...

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

 

[Prin.Ciples]

Brethren, I got saved reading a printed prayer. The problem isn't with prayer.

I really did repent, and I really did accept Christ. The problem is with repeating words with no intention of repenting, with a rejection of Christ as Lord, with a determination to continue in a life of sin, and with a desire only to escape the penalty of that sin.

You said you got saved reading a printed prayer and then you start add things you had to realize before you got saved.......I think you're expecting use to be a little naive.

I promised God dozens of times that I would do my best to never....ever.... sin again. Over and over again. I had no idea what I was saying. I had no idea what it meant. My conversion all began with finally realizing that I really didn't believe the record God gave of His Son. The record that said that God took my guilt and sin upon Himself to redeem me. My problem wasn't trying to quit "sinning". My problem was realizing just how helpless I was to do just that. I couldn't cease from sin. Can't now. You can't either. Repentance is all about present condition and a realization of that condition..... resulting in a helpless cry for mercy and yearning for relief. Its a total absolution of sin. Repentance is a Holy Thing in which you and God..................... Agree. This can not happen until you believe the record God gave of His Son.

 

[Anchor]

Absolute.... utter nonsense.

Repentance is granted. Read the story of Esau. Read Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25 and Hebrews 12:17.  Just how in the world can you repent of something you do not believe???? and don't play word games with knowledge and belief. Belief is knowledge applied.

Prayer is our confession. To quote your own references...

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

If your premise is built largely around the record of Esau (Heb. 12; etc.) your premise is quite faulty.  The record of Esau is not one of salvation, but of seeking ("with tears") a change of mind ("repentance") from his father regarding the blessing of the first-born.  See Genesis 27:38-40

 

[Vince Massi]

Calm down, Horsefeathers.

I attended a Billy Graham movie and was brought under strong conviction. As a Catholic, I already knew that I was going to Hell. I read a booklet by Billy Graham that they gave me, and Graham showed from Scripture that I was a sinner, and than no matter how hard I tried, I could not be good enough to earn my way into Heaven. Then Graham showed from Scripture that the only way to Heaven was through Jesus Christ.
I was under genuine conviction, and I prayed the printed prayer they had, and Jesus saved me.

 

[Prin.Ciples]

Absolute.... utter nonsense.

Repentance is granted. Read the story of Esau. Read Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25 and Hebrews 12:17.  Just how in the world can you repent of something you do not believe???? and don't play word games with knowledge and belief. Belief is knowledge applied.

Prayer is our confession. To quote your own references...

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

If your premise is built largely around the record of Esau (Heb. 12; etc.) your premise is quite faulty.  The record of Esau is not one of salvation, but of seeking ("with tears") a change of mind ("repentance") from his father regarding the blessing of the first-born.  See Genesis 27:38-40

I'm not the one that wrote Hebrews 12:7. The author of Hebrew presents the story of Esau as an allusion to the repentance man seeks from God. Its not that Esau wasn't sorry or didn't repent. Its the fact Esau's father didn't change His mind. True Repentance is as much about God changing His about the sinner as it is a change of mind for the sinner. Repentance is granted from God. Its not something a person can do apart from the divine action of God Himself.

In similar manner this is also witnessed in 2 Timothy 2:25. Take it up with the authors.

 

[Prin.Ciples]

Calm down, Horsefeathers.

I attended a Billy Graham movie and was brought under strong conviction. As a Catholic, I already knew that I was going to Hell. I read a booklet by Billy Graham that they gave me, and Graham showed from Scripture that I was a sinner, and than no matter how hard I tried, I could not be good enough to earn my way into Heaven. Then Graham showed from Scripture that the only way to Heaven was through Jesus Christ.
I was under genuine conviction, and I prayed the printed prayer they had, and Jesus saved me.

I'm thinking of Paul Harvey..... Now we have the "rest of the story".

There is always more to the story. We forget just how involved the process was.......

 

[rsc2a]

Repentance ==> faith      - wrong
Faith ==> Repentance      - wrong
Repentance <==> faith    - correct