Refuting Calvinism

[BALAAM]

And you get to decide what a true calvinist is and believes? How convenient.  :

I along with other Bible believing Christians know what true calvinists believe and teach.

Calvinism is a satanic heresy.

And it is based mainly on pride.

Did Pete tell you this?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

And you get to decide what a true calvinist is and believes? How convenient.  :

I along with other Bible believing Christians know what true calvinists believe and teach.

Calvinism is a satanic heresy.

And it is based mainly on pride.

Satanic heresy?
You do realize that there is NO practical distinction between a Calvinist and an Arminian right? At the end of the day nothing changes whether you believe that God chose you or that you chose God (or however you want to define it). In a practical sense your Christian walk will be no different based on whether you are Calvinist or not.

It's like the old "angels on the head of a pin" argument. It really doesn't matter which side is right, it's just fun to debate.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

In a practical sense your Christian walk will be no different based on whether you are Calvinist or not.

I'm not saying this to convince people to become "Calvinists", but I do think it affects your Christian walk.  A free-willer trusts in God's sovereignty over some things.  A Calvinist trusts in God's sovereignty over everything.  Either way, it affects how you see life, and therefore how you handle life. 

 

[Ransom]

Did you get this out of Calvin's writings?

Only if he's storing Calvin's writings in his lower colon.

 

[Bob H]

In a practical sense your Christian walk will be no different based on whether you are Calvinist or not.

I'm not saying this to convince people to become "Calvinists", but I do think it affects your Christian walk.  A free-willer trusts in God's sovereignty over some things.  A Calvinist trusts in God's sovereignty over everything.  Either way, it affects how you see life, and therefore how you handle life.

in my personal experiences with calvinists.... and from witnessing what i have of the "christian walk" exhibited by a few of them here.....  : ... i would say simply observing the effect calvinism appears to have on their life is all the proof and reason i need to reject it entirely....... and i;m not necessarily saying that to convince people to stop being calvinists...... :..... just saying......... the evidence speaks for itself......

That had to of left a mark

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

In a practical sense your Christian walk will be no different based on whether you are Calvinist or not.

I'm not saying this to convince people to become "Calvinists", but I do think it affects your Christian walk.  A free-willer trusts in God's sovereignty over some things.  A Calvinist trusts in God's sovereignty over everything.  Either way, it affects how you see life, and therefore how you handle life.

in my personal experiences with calvinists.... and from witnessing what i have of the "christian walk" exhibited by a few of them here.....  : ... i would say simply observing the effect calvinism appears to have on their life is all the proof and reason i need to reject it entirely....... and i;m not necessarily saying that to convince people to stop being calvinists...... :..... just saying......... the evidence speaks for itself......

That had to of left a mark

Really?  A mark on whom?  I'm not even remotely offended. 

By the way, it's "had to have" not "had to of". 

 

[Ransom]

That had to of left a mark

A yellowish stain from the uncontrollable laughter, maybe.

Like Rogue, I find it hard to be offended by the cliched cant of the free-willies. More embarrassed on their behalf, actually.

 

[Biblebeliever]

Satanic heresy?
You do realize that there is NO practical distinction between a Calvinist and an Arminian right?

No practical distinction??

What exactly do you mean?

There is certainly a distinction in what they believe concerning theology.

At the end of the day nothing changes whether you believe that God chose you or that you chose God (or however you want to define it). In a practical sense your Christian walk will be no different based on whether you are Calvinist or not.

Actually, a Christian's walk will be different if he is a Calvinist. Our action is based mainly on our beliefs. And if a Christian is deceived by the false Calvinistic teaching that God has already ordained and predestined some to Heaven and predestined the remaining souls of mankind to eternal damnation, then that Christian is not going to be a strong evangelist and soul winner, now is he?


That Christian will be thinking, what's the point in trying to evangelize? Most of these people are probably "Non-elect" anyways, and if they are non-elect, then they have no chance of ever getting saved in the first place.

So again, a Christian's practical and spiritual walk will be different if he is a calvinist.

It's like the old "angels on the head of a pin" argument. It really doesn't matter which side is right, it's just fun to debate.

Of course it matters which side is right. And the side that is right is the Bible side. Arminiasm is simply an extreme opposite of Calvinism. Arminism undermines God's soverignty and control while over emphasizing man's choice and free will.

On the flip side of the coin, Calvinism over emphasizes God's soverignty and control while totally denying man's free will and his ability to choose to either believe or to reject the Gospel.

 

[Biblebeliever]

Did you get this out of Calvin's writings?

I got it out of his writings and teachings on his heresy of "limited atonement" as well as "irresistible grace."

 

[Biblebeliever]

Did Pete tell you this?

Pete? Who is Pete?

 

[Recovering IFB]

That Christian will be thinking, what's the point in trying to evangelize? Most of these people are probably "Non-elect" anyways, and if they are non-elect, then they have no chance of ever getting saved in the first place.

Calvin"s quotes on evangelism:
“We should remember that the gospel is preached not only by the command of Christ but by His urging and leading.”

"True Christians yearn to extend God’s truth every where so that God may be more glorified.”

“It is a sacrifice well pleasing to God to advance the spread of the Gospel.”

“It is very just that we should labor to further the progress of gospel.”

“Our compassion should be intensified by knowing that God cannot be sincerely called upon by others than those to whom, through the preaching of the gospel, His kindness has been known.”

“We owe it to God to strive for the salvation of others.”

On the flip side of the coin, Calvinism over emphasizes God's soverignty and control while totally denying man's free will and his ability to choose to either believe or to reject the Gospel.

How do you over emphasize His sovereignty? Either He is sovereign or He is not. There is no " a little sovereign".

 

[subllibrm]

That Christian will be thinking, what's the point in trying to evangelize? Most of these people are probably "Non-elect" anyways, and if they are non-elect, then they have no chance of ever getting saved in the first place.

Calvin"s quotes on evangelism:
“We should remember that the gospel is preached not only by the command of Christ but by His urging and leading.”

"True Christians yearn to extend God’s truth every where so that God may be more glorified.”

“It is a sacrifice well pleasing to God to advance the spread of the Gospel.”

“It is very just that we should labor to further the progress of gospel.”

“Our compassion should be intensified by knowing that God cannot be sincerely called upon by others than those to whom, through the preaching of the gospel, His kindness has been known.”

“We owe it to God to strive for the salvation of others.”

On the flip side of the coin, Calvinism over emphasizes God's soverignty and control while totally denying man's free will and his ability to choose to either believe or to reject the Gospel.

How do you over emphasize His sovereignty? Either He is sovereign or He is not. There is no " a little sovereign".

"I am mostly in control" - God

 

[subllibrm]

Actually, a Christian's walk will be different if he is a Calvinist. Our action is based mainly on our beliefs. And if a Christian is deceived by the false Calvinistic teaching that God has already ordained and predestined some to Heaven and predestined the remaining souls of mankind to eternal damnation, then that Christian is not going to be a strong evangelist and soul winner, now is he?

That Christian will be thinking, what's the point in trying to evangelize? Most of these people are probably "Non-elect" anyways, and if they are non-elect, then they have no chance of ever getting saved in the first place.

So again, a Christian's practical and spiritual walk will be different if he is a calvinist.

And you have documentation of anyone teaching this?

Or, you made a strawman out of your obvious misunderstanding of the doctrines of grace and God's sovereignty.

Let me quote one of the most enthusiastic, prolific and effective evangelists I ever met. He was taking a fellow pastor friend on his visitation rounds. They pulled up to an apartment complex. As the got out of the car and headed toward the buildings, he turned tot he other man and said "some of God's elect live here, let's go find them".

That is not the mindset of a man who thinks that his efforts are pointless as you have alleged out of ignorance.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

"I am mostly in control" - God

My favorite free-willer argument for how God remains sovereign even though man can override his will is, "It was God's sovereign decision to give man the free will to choose him or not." 

Roughly translated as, "It was God's sovereign decision not to be sovereign over the salvation of men." 

Simply translated as, "God is still sovereign because it was God's sovereign decision to not be sovereign."

 

[Billy]

You know folks this is real simple: Either God knows and controls EVERYTHING or He knows and controls nothing...it's called being Sovereign...look it up!

 

[christundivided]

You know folks this is real simple: Either God knows and controls EVERYTHING or He knows and controls nothing...it's called being Sovereign...look it up!

Yeah.... God's controls everything. Even down to your bowel movements. THEY pretend this is called the "Sovereignty" of God.

 

[Billy]

You know folks this is real simple: Either God knows and controls EVERYTHING or He knows and controls nothing...it's called being Sovereign...look it up!

Yeah.... God's controls everything. Even down to your bowel movements. THEY pretend this is called the "Sovereignty" of God.

Yep, God looks down from heaven and says "Wow I didn't know Billy had to go poop...caught me off guard I didn't see that coming"


Pathetic view of God if you don't believe that He's know everything.

 

[christundivided]

"I am mostly in control" - God

My favorite free-willer argument for how God remains sovereign even though man can override his will is, "It was God's sovereign decision to give man the free will to choose him or not." 

Roughly translated as, "It was God's sovereign decision not to be sovereign over the salvation of men." 

Simply translated as, "God is still sovereign because it was God's sovereign decision to not be sovereign."

Funny. I think its time I give you a hard time....

Lets look at a simple example of what you're saying.....

Is the atomic structure of  matter....... under the Sovereign control of God? Yet, you can place "wood" into to a flame and dramatically change the atomic structure of said matter.

Does this mean that God isn't Sovereign over the atomic structure of "wood"?

 

[christundivided]

You know folks this is real simple: Either God knows and controls EVERYTHING or He knows and controls nothing...it's called being Sovereign...look it up!

Yeah.... God's controls everything. Even down to your bowel movements. THEY pretend this is called the "Sovereignty" of God.

Yep, God looks down from heaven and says "Wow I didn't know Billy had to go poop...caught me off guard I didn't see that coming"


Pathetic view of God if you don't believe that He's know everything.

Pathetic view of theology if you think Omniscience has anything to do with your God's divine action.... in forcing you to take a poop at 5:00 PM EST July 18, 2014 instead of 5:01 PM EST. 

Omniscience is a direct result of God's divine action and Omnipotent power. Sorry if I don't believe God is divinely controlling the frequency of your bowel movements. I happen to think it has more to do with how much you eat, what you choose to eat and how often you eat. I believe it is rather silly to think otherwise.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Pathetic view of theology if you think Omniscience has anything to do with your God's divine action.... in forcing you to take a poop at 5:00 PM EST July 18, 2014 instead of 5:01 PM EST. 

Fallacy of no third option:  Either you poop of your own free will, or God forces you to do it (implied: against your will). 

Ironically, if you really want to know if you poop of your own free will, decide never to poop again and see how long you can hold it in. 

Seriously, God's sovereignty over our will is complicated and seems like a paradox to us mere humans.  The best way to illustrate the principle is when Joseph said to his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."