Refuting Calvinism

[The Rogue Tomato]

One of Calvinism's strongest attacks is that they believe in the sovereignty of God.

That attack becomes a lot weaker when you learn that the phrase "sovereignty of God" does not appear in Scripture.

The Bible is filled with descriptions of God's sovereignty over ALL things, including psalms that praise God because he is sovereign over all things.  It even comes right out and says your so-called free-will plans amount to absolutely nothing. 

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Your argument couldn't be weaker.  It's like saying there is no trinity because the word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible. 

 

[Darkwing Duck]

One of Calvinism's strongest attacks is that they believe in the sovereignty of God.

That attack becomes a lot weaker when you learn that the phrase "sovereignty of God" does not appear in Scripture.

The Bible is filled with descriptions of God's sovereignty over ALL things, including psalms that praise God because he is sovereign over all things.  It even comes right out and says your so-called free-will plans amount to absolutely nothing. 

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Your argument couldn't be weaker.  It's like saying there is no trinity because the word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible.

Why are you arguing with him then? Didn't God force him to post what he posted? Shouldn't you be arguing with God?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

One of Calvinism's strongest attacks is that they believe in the sovereignty of God.

That attack becomes a lot weaker when you learn that the phrase "sovereignty of God" does not appear in Scripture.

The Bible is filled with descriptions of God's sovereignty over ALL things, including psalms that praise God because he is sovereign over all things.  It even comes right out and says your so-called free-will plans amount to absolutely nothing. 

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Your argument couldn't be weaker.  It's like saying there is no trinity because the word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible.

Why are you arguing with him then? Didn't God force him to post what he posted? Shouldn't you be arguing with God?

You're really stuck on that fallacy of no third option.  To you, either you do it of your own free will, or God forces you to do it (implied: against your will). 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I have sympathy for people who's God is in heaven waiting to see what they are going to do so he can come up with a proper response to them.

 

[Ransom]

One of Calvinism's errors is that because the lost are dead in trespasses and sins, they cannot respond to God. But on at least three occasions, Jesus spoke to a dead person, and the dead person heard Him and obeyed.

Which is the point exactly. Lazarus wasn't coming out of his tomb unless he was restored to life first, and only God has power over life and death.

Similarly, those who are dead in trespasses and sins aren't going to respond to God on their own initiative, unless God restores them to life first.

Jesus made that very point with Martha at Lazarus' tomb: when she told him that she believed Lazarus would live again - eventually, at the resurrection - he answered that he was the resurrection and the life, and that those who believed in him would never die (John 11:24-25). Lazarus' death and resurrection was an object lesson about salvation: just as Christ has power to raise people from the grave, he also has power to raise them from their sins.

 

[Ransom]

That attack becomes a lot weaker when you learn that the phrase "sovereignty of God" does not appear in Scripture.

And then it becomes a lot stronger when you read what Scripture actually does say about God.

The Lord reigns; he is robed in majesty; the Lord is robed; he has put on strength as his belt. (Psa. 93:1)

The Lord reigns!  Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity. (Psa. 96:10)

The Lord reigns, let the earth rejoice; let the many coastlands be glad! (Psa. 97:1)

The Lord reigns; let the peoples tremble! He sits enthroned upon the cherubim; let the earth quake! (Psa. 99:1)

Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders. (Isa. 24:23)

Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. (Rev. 19:6)

What does it mean for God to be Lord? To "reign"? To be enthroned or robed in majesty? To judge the peoples?  Those are regal functions: that is to say, sovereign. Note also that he judges not just the "people," but the "peoples"; he is not merely a local god ruling over one tribe or nation-state, but the King of all kings, the universal Sovereign of all sovereigns.

If you want to talk about weak arguments, it is extraordinarily weak to pull out the "The Bible doesn't use the term x, therefore the concept of x is false" one.  It doesn't wash when the Muslims or Oneness Pentecostals use it against the Trinity, and it doesn't wash when free-willies play it against God's sovereignty, either.

 

[Ransom]

I believe in eternal security, and not a single verse that I cited shows otherwise.

Brethren, the accusation that you don't believe in eternal security if you believe that God loves the world, that He calls all men to be saved, that He still wants people saved even if He hardens them, that Jesus died for all men, that God draws all people to Himself, that Jesus enlightens all men, that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, etc., is false.

I don't need fear and false accusations to teach those doctrines--every one of them is in the Word of God.

Mainstream fundamentalist Armininans have some of the most inconsistent theology out there, and they don't even realize it. They preach that they have the ability to choose to follow Christ on their own initiative, but once they have their ticket punched, they can't choose not to follow Christ.

For all your bluster about wanting to preserve a doctrine of free will, in the final analysis you don't really believe in it.

Historic Arminianism is far more consistent: free will entails the ability to fall from grace. If you can follow God freely, then you can also un-follow him.

Calvinism is also consistent, of course, and also more biblical: salvation is the work of God, and what he starts he is faithful to see through to the end: "I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I keep asking you what the third option is and you won't answer me!
Option 1: God chooses what we do
Option 2: we choose
option 3: . . .

One of Calvinism's strongest attacks is that they believe in the sovereignty of God.

That attack becomes a lot weaker when you learn that the phrase "sovereignty of God" does not appear in Scripture.

The Bible is filled with descriptions of God's sovereignty over ALL things, including psalms that praise God because he is sovereign over all things.  It even comes right out and says your so-called free-will plans amount to absolutely nothing. 

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Your argument couldn't be weaker.  It's like saying there is no trinity because the word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible.

Why are you arguing with him then? Didn't God force him to post what he posted? Shouldn't you be arguing with God?

You're really stuck on that fallacy of no third option.  To you, either you do it of your own free will, or God forces you to do it (implied: against your will).

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I don't get this argument.
Arminianism: we choose to get saved as taught in verses  X,Y, and Z. We cannot choose to be unsaved as taught in verses X,Y, and Z.
Calvinists: that's illogical.
Arminians: So? Let God be true and every man a liar. Also see the verse Rogue tomato posted about questioning God.

( I'm not arminian but I was raised that way so I know some of their arguments.)

I believe in eternal security, and not a single verse that I cited shows otherwise.

Brethren, the accusation that you don't believe in eternal security if you believe that God loves the world, that He calls all men to be saved, that He still wants people saved even if He hardens them, that Jesus died for all men, that God draws all people to Himself, that Jesus enlightens all men, that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, etc., is false.

I don't need fear and false accusations to teach those doctrines--every one of them is in the Word of God.

Mainstream fundamentalist Armininans have some of the most inconsistent theology out there, and they don't even realize it. They preach that they have the ability to choose to follow Christ on their own initiative, but once they have their ticket punched, they can't choose not to follow Christ.

For all your bluster about wanting to preserve a doctrine of free will, in the final analysis you don't really believe in it.

Historic Arminianism is far more consistent: free will entails the ability to fall from grace. If you can follow God freely, then you can also un-follow him.

Calvinism is also consistent, of course, and also more biblical: salvation is the work of God, and what he starts he is faithful to see through to the end: "I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I keep asking you what the third option is and you won't answer me!
Option 1: God chooses what we do
Option 2: we choose
option 3: . . .

I've answered you multiple times.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." 

On the surface, that would make it seem like Option 1 AND Option 2.  But it's not quite that simple.  And you seem to have the mistaken opinion that if we choose according to God's will, then God must be forcing us to do something we otherwise wouldn't do. 

 

[Ransom]

I don't get this argument.
Arminianism: we choose to get saved as taught in verses  X,Y, and Z. We cannot choose to be unsaved as taught in verses X,Y, and Z.

So address my argument. Do you believe in free will, or not? Do you believe that you lose it post-salvation, or do you agree with historic Arminianism that you can freely walk away from God and lose your place in the Kingdom?

Calvinists: that's illogical.
Arminians: So? Let God be true and every man a liar.

How can you even know what's true without applying logic, which at its most fundamental is merely an application of the law of non-contradiction?

Also see the verse Rogue tomato posted about questioning God.

I'm not questioning God. I'm questioning the ability of free-willies to reason through the implications of their beliefs.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

I keep asking you what the third option is and you won't answer me!
Option 1: God chooses what we do
Option 2: we choose
option 3: . . .

I've answered you multiple times.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." 

On the surface, that would make it seem like Option 1 AND Option 2.  But it's not quite that simple.  And you seem to have the mistaken opinion that if we choose according to God's will, then God must be forcing us to do something we otherwise wouldn't do.

I am coming in here mid stream, so I apologize in advance if I am misinterpreting you here TRT, but the Calvinist answer to God forcing you is typically that God forces you in a way that your are not forced, mysteriously, and that you are irresistibly drawn in a way that you don't want to resist, making it ok, because you don't want to resist in the first place, and he does this, well, mysteriously because He is God, and who can know the mind of God, and then you have free will, only not completely, just sorta, basically, you have limited free will, like, you have free will over the things that God gives you free will over, only you didn't have that much free will before you were saved, (interpretation, your will is not limited by God, but limited by each individual Calvinists interpretation of how much your free will is limited).

I have always wanted to go to a Calvinist Church on Friend Sunday and preach the Calvinist Gospel to see how it would be received. Now, here I preach "come, repent, but come". There I would be compelled to preach (if I was a Calvinist) "Come, don't come, what is that to me. If you are going to come you will, and there is nothing you can do about it, and you will be happy after you do. Some of you want to come, but you can't. Simple as that. Too bad, so sad, but you aren't one of us. Some of you don't even weant to come, so don't, see if i care. Both of you buncha unsaved are vessels fitted to destruction who were chosen in the good pleasure of God to show His wrath. Don't fret, get out of here and live it up. Eat, drink, be merry for this life is all you have. Hell is hell, so why bother trying to be good or moral? It's just gonna get worse after you die so you better make the most of it down here. Some of you feel convicted, tough. If you can come, God will bring you, if you can't, well, now you know why, you just can't, you weren't chosen, or at least you weren't chosen for heaven. I was and I am glad. Jesus saves, well, Jesus saves some, and His blood cleanses sin, well ,some of us at least, so, come, don't come, what is that to me? If God is pleased to send you to hell, so am I.

 

[rsc2a]

I keep asking you what the third option is and you won't answer me!
Option 1: God chooses what we do
Option 2: we choose
option 3: . . .

I've answered you multiple times.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." 

On the surface, that would make it seem like Option 1 AND Option 2.  But it's not quite that simple.  And you seem to have the mistaken opinion that if we choose according to God's will, then God must be forcing us to do something we otherwise wouldn't do.

I am coming in here mid stream, so I apologize in advance if I am misinterpreting you here TRT, but the Calvinist answer to God forcing you is typically that God forces you in a way that your are not forced, mysteriously, and that you are irresistibly drawn in a way that you don't want to resist, making it ok, because you don't want to resist in the first place, and he does this, well, mysteriously because He is God, and who can know the mind of God, and then you have free will, only not completely, just sorta, basically, you have limited free will, like, you have free will over the things that God gives you free will over, only you didn't have that much free will before you were saved...

Simple question: is the statue that is created carved by the chisel or by the sculptor?

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

I keep asking you what the third option is and you won't answer me!
Option 1: God chooses what we do
Option 2: we choose
option 3: . . .

I've answered you multiple times.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." 

On the surface, that would make it seem like Option 1 AND Option 2.  But it's not quite that simple.  And you seem to have the mistaken opinion that if we choose according to God's will, then God must be forcing us to do something we otherwise wouldn't do.

I am coming in here mid stream, so I apologize in advance if I am misinterpreting you here TRT, but the Calvinist answer to God forcing you is typically that God forces you in a way that your are not forced, mysteriously, and that you are irresistibly drawn in a way that you don't want to resist, making it ok, because you don't want to resist in the first place, and he does this, well, mysteriously because He is God, and who can know the mind of God, and then you have free will, only not completely, just sorta, basically, you have limited free will, like, you have free will over the things that God gives you free will over, only you didn't have that much free will before you were saved...

Simple question: is the statue that is created carved by the chisel or by the sculptor?

The simple answer is simple, carved by the sculptor, but mankind is not a statue. That simply denigrates God's creation.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

it would be received. Now, here I preach "come, repent, but come". There I would be compelled to preach (if I was a Calvinist) "Come, don't come, what is that to me. If you are going to come you will, and there is nothing you can do about it, and you will be happy after you do. Some of you want to come, but you can't. Simple as that. Too bad, so sad, but you aren't one of us. Some of you don't even weant to come, so don't, see if i care. Both of you buncha unsaved are vessels fitted to destruction who were chosen in the good pleasure of God to show His wrath. Don't fret, get out of here and live it up. Eat, drink, be merry for this life is all you have. Hell is hell, so why bother trying to be good or moral? It's just gonna get worse after you die so you better make the most of it down here. Some of you feel convicted, tough. If you can come, God will bring you, if you can't, well, now you know why, you just can't, you weren't chosen, or at least you weren't chosen for heaven. I was and I am glad. Jesus saves, well, Jesus saves some, and His blood cleanses sin, well ,some of us at least, so, come, don't come, what is that to me? If God is pleased to send you to hell, so am I.

I'm not at all surprised you see it that way.  I sometimes wonder if you've even read the Bible, let alone understood any of it. 

 

[rsc2a]

I keep asking you what the third option is and you won't answer me!
Option 1: God chooses what we do
Option 2: we choose
option 3: . . .

I've answered you multiple times.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." 

On the surface, that would make it seem like Option 1 AND Option 2.  But it's not quite that simple.  And you seem to have the mistaken opinion that if we choose according to God's will, then God must be forcing us to do something we otherwise wouldn't do.

I am coming in here mid stream, so I apologize in advance if I am misinterpreting you here TRT, but the Calvinist answer to God forcing you is typically that God forces you in a way that your are not forced, mysteriously, and that you are irresistibly drawn in a way that you don't want to resist, making it ok, because you don't want to resist in the first place, and he does this, well, mysteriously because He is God, and who can know the mind of God, and then you have free will, only not completely, just sorta, basically, you have limited free will, like, you have free will over the things that God gives you free will over, only you didn't have that much free will before you were saved...

Simple question: is the statue that is created carved by the chisel or by the sculptor?

The simple answer is simple, carved by the sculptor, but mankind is not a statue. That simply denigrates God's creation.

You got the simple answer wrong. The correct answer is both.

So is God or a man the causative action behind that man's choice to follow God? Likewise, the answer is both.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

it would be received. Now, here I preach "come, repent, but come". There I would be compelled to preach (if I was a Calvinist) "Come, don't come, what is that to me. If you are going to come you will, and there is nothing you can do about it, and you will be happy after you do. Some of you want to come, but you can't. Simple as that. Too bad, so sad, but you aren't one of us. Some of you don't even weant to come, so don't, see if i care. Both of you buncha unsaved are vessels fitted to destruction who were chosen in the good pleasure of God to show His wrath. Don't fret, get out of here and live it up. Eat, drink, be merry for this life is all you have. Hell is hell, so why bother trying to be good or moral? It's just gonna get worse after you die so you better make the most of it down here. Some of you feel convicted, tough. If you can come, God will bring you, if you can't, well, now you know why, you just can't, you weren't chosen, or at least you weren't chosen for heaven. I was and I am glad. Jesus saves, well, Jesus saves some, and His blood cleanses sin, well ,some of us at least, so, come, don't come, what is that to me? If God is pleased to send you to hell, so am I.

I'm not at all surprised you see it that way.  I sometimes wonder if you've even read the Bible, let alone understood any of it.

Or, you don't like my answer, but while it is sarcastic and insensitive and from that perspective more or less unacceptable from a pulpit, it expresses the net result of Calvinsims views on salvation.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

I keep asking you what the third option is and you won't answer me!
Option 1: God chooses what we do
Option 2: we choose
option 3: . . .

I've answered you multiple times.  "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." 

On the surface, that would make it seem like Option 1 AND Option 2.  But it's not quite that simple.  And you seem to have the mistaken opinion that if we choose according to God's will, then God must be forcing us to do something we otherwise wouldn't do.

I am coming in here mid stream, so I apologize in advance if I am misinterpreting you here TRT, but the Calvinist answer to God forcing you is typically that God forces you in a way that your are not forced, mysteriously, and that you are irresistibly drawn in a way that you don't want to resist, making it ok, because you don't want to resist in the first place, and he does this, well, mysteriously because He is God, and who can know the mind of God, and then you have free will, only not completely, just sorta, basically, you have limited free will, like, you have free will over the things that God gives you free will over, only you didn't have that much free will before you were saved...

Simple question: is the statue that is created carved by the chisel or by the sculptor?

The simple answer is simple, carved by the sculptor, but mankind is not a statue. That simply denigrates God's creation.

You got the simple answer wrong. The correct answer is both.

So is God or a man the causative action behind that man's choice to follow God? Likewise, the answer is both.

Which may be your view, but that does not fit a general Calvinists view.

In the matter of salvation, there is a twofold action taking place, the drawing of the Spirit, and the decision to accept the offer by man.

In discussions with Calvinists, there is no part in man accepting. None. At all. Ever. It is all God, and to say otherwise is to devalue the sovereignty of God. Dead men can't decide they say. So, God regenerates them, then they decide. Not God draws them then they decide. I did mention that I had jumped in the middle, so if I mis-portrayed you, I acknowledge that.

 

[Vince Massi]

Another false accusation that Calvinists frighten people with is the statement that if you choose to accept Chirst, that is a good work, and you are teaching salvation by works.

However, the Scriptures, especially in Romans and Galatians, teach us that faith is not works. When you chose to trust Christ, it was an act of faith, not a good work.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

it would be received. Now, here I preach "come, repent, but come". There I would be compelled to preach (if I was a Calvinist) "Come, don't come, what is that to me. If you are going to come you will, and there is nothing you can do about it, and you will be happy after you do. Some of you want to come, but you can't. Simple as that. Too bad, so sad, but you aren't one of us. Some of you don't even weant to come, so don't, see if i care. Both of you buncha unsaved are vessels fitted to destruction who were chosen in the good pleasure of God to show His wrath. Don't fret, get out of here and live it up. Eat, drink, be merry for this life is all you have. Hell is hell, so why bother trying to be good or moral? It's just gonna get worse after you die so you better make the most of it down here. Some of you feel convicted, tough. If you can come, God will bring you, if you can't, well, now you know why, you just can't, you weren't chosen, or at least you weren't chosen for heaven. I was and I am glad. Jesus saves, well, Jesus saves some, and His blood cleanses sin, well ,some of us at least, so, come, don't come, what is that to me? If God is pleased to send you to hell, so am I.

I'm not at all surprised you see it that way.  I sometimes wonder if you've even read the Bible, let alone understood any of it.

Or, you don't like my answer, but while it is sarcastic and insensitive and from that perspective more or less unacceptable from a pulpit, it expresses the net result of Calvinsims views on salvation.

"My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."

I can see it's not going to go well for you.