Refuting Calvinism

[Biblebeliever]

But not all men will be saved. 

That is correct. In fact, most men will not be saved:


Matthew 7:13-14 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So, what you're saying is that God is too weak to make sure his will is done?

No, that is not what I am saying.

You are just ASSUMING that that is what I said.

But again, I did not say that.

That man's free will is more powerful than God's will?

Once again, this is your assumption.

I have said this before, and I will repeat it. God Almighty's power and providence and dealings with mankind does not negate man's own free will and responsibility.


You do realize that Christians are also going to be held accountable for their actions and their works after their salvation?

Have you ever read about the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, 2 Corinthians 5:10-11)?


The fact that there is a Judgment also proves that man is given a free will. And after a person gets saved, he still has a free will. And he can either choose to live for Christ and to serve Him. Or he can choose to not live for Christ. A Christian can choose to yield to the Holy Ghost or to not yield to the Holy Ghost.

  That the Devil has the power to thwart God's will by drawing more men to himself in spite of God's will for all to be saved?  Yeah, that's what you're saying. 

No, that is not what I am saying. Again, that is only your assumption. And you are wrong.


God is love and because He is love, he gives man a free will. He even gives His angels a free will.

And although God's will is for all men to be saved. Still though, God is not going to force anyone against their own will to get saved. God is a Gentleman.  That is why in Revelation 3:20, the Lord Jesus Christ stands at the door and knocks. And He does not come in unless the door is opened for him to come in. Think about that.

 

[Biblebeliever]

So you can't will yourself to be reborn, but you can accept someone's offer to be reborn? How does this make sense? You contradict yourself.

Scott, Regeneration is by the power of the Holy Ghost.


The new birth comes at Salvation.

A person cannot save themselves. Only God can save a person. And God saves those who believe on His Son. (Acts 16:31).

 

[Biblebeliever]

If you were paying attention, my rebuttal was immediately after that post,

What caused Satan to fall?

 

[Biblebeliever]

I read a book some years ago (I wish I could recall the author, but he was on par with R. C. Sproul or J. I. Packer) that made the case for God withdrawing enough of himself from satan to enable satan to fall of his own "free will".  In other words, it wasn't really as simple as free will.  It required action from God for satan to fall.

So basically, you believe that it was God's fault that Lucifer fell and became Satan?

 

[Biblebeliever]

Have you ever read anything from Calvin other than what somebody told you about him? Have you read Institutes?
Please, enlighten us to the teachings of John Calvin.
I will not take you seriously or dismiss everything you post as garbage until you answer this.

I have read a number of Calvin's writings.

And yes, I have read institutes of Calvin.

 

[Recovering IFB]

You have never read Calvin, you are ignorant and have not answered the question, or any for that matter. ( well I'll give you credit for the repentance one, even though a man doesn't have to "come to the end of himself") You still have not explained what Calvinism is. You are throwing out your opinion.
And for Romans 9 is not talking about nations saving, it's talking about God's work in salvation.
Let me ask you, If God knows our day of our birth, the day of our salvation and the day of our death, and God commands all things; How can man thwart God's plan if he has planned to save an individual if God has shown to show mercy to someone?

 

[prophet]

To accept an offer requires no power.
To be reborn, requires power.

Birth, however, requires someone else's power. No one chooses the time or circumstances of his birth. You make nonsense of the Bible.

Yes, birth requires someone else's power. 
I said that.
It isn't nonsense.

You are looking across an imiginary fence, right now, claiming that no one can cross it.

I accepted a proposal from th e Groom.
He owns everything.
He owns the house.
He knows where it is.
He will bring me to it, at His appointed time.

I had to accept His proposal, in order to expect Him to come for me.

I didnt look for a groom, that isn't allowed. He sought me. He chose me.  But I had to choose Him, as well.  He isn't going to kidnap any bride at His return, only those who accepted His offer will be ready.

He has all the power, I have none.
So it was an easy choice (for me).

He loved me first, before I was capable of loving Him.  So it was an easy choice (for me).

I am His, He bought me, adopted me, remade me, indwells me, leads me, corrects me, succors me, nurtures me, sustains me, keeps me, and perfects me.

He did this, because I didn't reject Him, or ceased to reject Him, and accepted His proposal.
I believed Him at His Word.
He made a promise, and I accepted it.

Once I believed that I had to be a good boy, like we all naturally do, to enter His Kingdom.
He offered His Word, in opposition to my false idea.
I heard His Word, and realized my error.
I repented of my unbelief.
I put all of my eggs in one basket.
I moved my weight onto Christ.
I believed, and my account was balanced by Him, I owe nothing now.

I did no work, I accepted a free gift.
Had I not accepted Him, I would be none of His.
Am I special, better than others, superior?  No.  I'm just puzzled.  I can't understand why anyone would reject so great Love.
But broad is the way, and many go that way .

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And although God's will is for all men to be saved. Still though, God is not going to force anyone against their own will to get saved. God is a Gentleman.  That is why in Revelation 3:20, the Lord Jesus Christ stands at the door and knocks. And He does not come in unless the door is opened for him to come in. Think about that.

The old "God is a gentleman" lie, nowhere to be found in scripture. 

Face it, your vision of God is that he's a pathetic, incompetent wimp who wants to save everyone, but is unable to make it happen because man's will is more powerful than God's will.  Let that sink in.  Sinful, fallen man's will -- the will of a man who can't even think clearly and rationally because his reason has been corrupted by the fall -- takes precedence over the will of God.  How can you worship a pitiful loser God like that? 

 

[Recovering IFB]

Revelation 3:20 is not written to unbelievers. It is written to the believers at the church of Ladocia to return back to their first love, Christ! To say somebody won't be saved because they "reject" God if God has predestianted them for salvation is ubsurd! You are basically saying God's sovereign will is a joke!

 

[Biblebeliever]

You have never read Calvin, you are ignorant and have not answered the question, or any for that matter.

I have read some of Calvin's works. Haven't read all of them, and from what I have read and what I have learned from other Bible believing preachers who have also studied some of Calvin's writings and such, it is enough to affirm that Calvin's belief system was one of pride, and it greatly errs from the word of God. Calvinism perverts the justice of Almighty God and shame on you for defending such a heresy as Calvinism.

( well I'll give you credit for the repentance one, even though a man doesn't have to "come to the end of himself")

A man must give up his self righteousness and his pride. Otherwise he will never come to a genuine state of repentance. And hence, he will never come to Christ.

You still have not explained what Calvinism is. You are throwing out your opinion.

Yes I have. I have explained what Calvinism simply is. It teaches that God chooses some to salvation while choosing to damn others out of arbitration. Like I already mentioned, Calvinism perverts the justice of God, and it voids man's own responsibility to repent and to choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And for Romans 9 is not talking about nations saving, it's talking about God's work in salvation.

I could see how Romans 9 alludes to God's work in Salvation, but the context is not about individual salvation, but the Context is on Israel as a Nation. That is why Moses is mentioned in that Chapter, as well as Pharoah. And notice how Esaias (Isaiah) is also mentioned in Romans 9.

Romans 9 is also showing how the Gentiles (Gentile Nations) attained unto righteousness by the righteousness which is of faith in contrast to Israel (National Israel) which although followed after the Law of Righteousness, still, they (as a Nation) did not attain to the law of righteousness.

So, yes I do agree with you that God's work of salvation is taught in Romans 9, that can be clearly seen. But when one focuses on the Context of the entire Chapter, Israel as a Nation is being discussed. And it shows how the Gentile nations attained to the righteousness which is of faith.

Read Romans 9 to 11, and see how Israel as a Nation is cut off temporarily so that the Gentiles (Nations) can be graft in to the Natural Olive Tree.

Always read the Scriptures in Context.

Let me ask you, If God knows our day of our birth, the day of our salvation and the day of our death, and God commands all things; How can man thwart God's plan if he has planned to save an individual if God has shown to show mercy to someone?

I did not say that man could thwart God's plan. Again, your assuming things based on your calvinistic bias.

Don't you realize that God has a permissive will and a perfect will? Or better yet, do you realize that God has a good, acceptable and perfect will??

God is so powerful that He could make everyone to love Him and to serve Him if He wanted to. In fact, God could have made robots if He wanted them. But He wanted to create man and woman with a choice since He is love. So thereby He gave man a freewill.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

it is enough to affirm that Calvin's belief system was one of pride

Because nothing is more prideful than believing God is exclusively responsible for your salvation, rather than whatever it is about you that enabled you to make the right decision. 

A man must give up his self righteousness and his pride. Otherwise he will never come to a genuine state of repentance. And hence, he will never come to Christ.

Salvation by free will choice means that the difference between you and the unsaved is that you made the right decision, and they made the wrong decision.  Having made the right decision of your own free will, you have something about which to boast.  So, by your logic above, a free willer could never possibly repent and be saved, because his position is one of pride.   

Yes I have. I have explained what Calvinism simply is. It teaches that God chooses some to salvation while choosing to damn others out of arbitration.

You obviously don't have a clue what Calvinism is. 

I did not say that man could thwart God's plan. Again, your assuming things based on your calvinistic bias.

Then how can you say it is God's will that everyone be saved?  If not everyone is saved, then SOMEONE thwarted God's will. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

I have read some of Calvin's works. Haven't read all of them, and from what I have read and what I have learned from other Bible believing preachers who have also studied some of Calvin's writings and such, it is enough to affirm that Calvin's belief system was one of pride, and it greatly errs from the word of God. Calvinism perverts the justice of Almighty God and shame on you for defending such a heresy as Calvinism.

But you said you read Institutes, that's not some, that's 1700 pages, what is it? did you read it or not?

A man must give up his self righteousness and his pride. Otherwise he will never come to a genuine state of repentance. And hence, he will never come to Christ.

You said a man has to come to the end of himself to be repentant.  Strongs word for repent 3340,metanoeō, to feel sorry for ones past sins. where is it that one must come to the end of ones self? Thats is typical IFB, style preaching that puts guilt trips on people trying to make converts, rather that letting the Holy Spirit use Scripture to change people; vs. works salvation

Yes I have. I have explained what Calvinism simply is. It teaches that God chooses some to salvation while choosing to damn others out of arbitration. Like I already mentioned, Calvinism perverts the justice of God, and it voids man's own responsibility to repent and to choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Arbitration? you mean like In Romans 9?

ROmans 9: 10 And not only that, but also Rebekah received a promise when she became pregnant by one man, our ancestor Isaac. 11 For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand— 12 not from works but from the One who calls—she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau.

God’s Selection Is Just
14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses:

I will show mercy
to whom I will show mercy,
and I will have compassion
on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh:

I raised you up for this reason
so that I may display My power in you
and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
18 So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden.

19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? 23 And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory—

you call God arbitrary?

God is so powerful that He could make everyone to love Him and to serve Him if He wanted to. In fact, God could have made robots if He wanted them. But He wanted to create man and woman with a choice since He is love. So thereby He gave man a freewill.

No, if man were left to his own, he would not choose God, you know, there are none righteous, no one seeks after him! Man on his own would never choose God unless God changes mans heart, so man repents.
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, I dont see where man gets to make a decision here.
Eph1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure that He planned in Him

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Biblebeliever]

The old "God is a gentleman" lie, nowhere to be found in scripture. 

It is not a lie, blockhead.

Let me show you what the Scriptures declare:


Isaiah 1:18 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:
though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.



John 6:35-39 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.



Revelation 3:18-21 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Face it, your vision of God is that he's a pathetic, incompetent wimp who wants to save everyone, but is unable to make it happen because man's will is more powerful than God's will. 

No I view and see God as He reveals Himself in the pages of Scripture. For without the King James Holy Bible, I would have no idea about God's character and nature. The Holy Bible is the only tangible connection that a man has on this earth to God.

And you Calvinistic blockheads and heretics, what you guys like to do is falsely accuse of Bible believing Christians of somehow believing that man's will is more powerful than God Almighty's will.

But what we Bible believers really believe is that while God is all powerful, he still gives man a free will, and a choice. Just as He gave His cheribums and Angels a free will. It is like I mentioned earlier, if God wanted to, He could have created robots who would have no free will, but would love Him and serve Him perfectly without having any choice in the matter. But God did not create robots, why? Because God is love. And because He is love, He created mankind with the ability to choose. God gave man the free will. Hence, that is why there is a Judgment. That's why there is a Day of reckoning. And while man in his free will can do anything that he wants and desires, still though, he will have to give account of it in the Day of Judgment.


It is just incredible how many people could fall for such a foolish and blaspehmous system such as TULIP.

  Let that sink in.  Sinful, fallen man's will -- the will of a man who can't even think clearly and rationally because his reason has been corrupted by the fall -- takes precedence over the will of God.

Although, every man and woman on this earth have been affected by the fall and by the sin nature that has passed onto all mankind, man still has the ability to reason and to be rational.


God's will is that ALL come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

Afterall, God did not create Hell for man, but rather He created Hell for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

But God will let a man go to Hell if that is what the man chooses.

Let me ask you something, do you not think that God would allow a man to be tormented for ever and ever?

If your answer is no, well let me correct you here with Scripture, God will indeed allow a man to go to Hell and burn forever.

Why? Again, because God is love. God will not force anyone against their own will to love Him.

God wants a man or lady to love Him by their own free will and choice. Because when someone is given a choice and a freewill, then the love that comes is true and genuine love. It is not an artificial or forced kind of love.

How can you worship a pitiful loser God like that?

The God I worship is the God of the Bible. And that God is Holy, Just, Righteous, Compassionate, Strong, Mighty, Awesome, Great, and He wins. My God wins.

In Fact, He has already won.

 

[Biblebeliever]

Revelation 3:20 is not written to unbelievers. It is written to the believers at the church of Ladocia to return back to their first love, Christ!

Yes that is correct. Doctrinally speaking, it was written to Church at Laodicea. The believers there had gotten lukewarm.

But as instruction in righteousness, Rev. 3:20 can also be a picture and type to how Christ works on the heart of a lost sinner.

The Bible also talks about how God's Spirit will not always strive with man (Gen. 6:3).

To say somebody won't be saved because they "reject" God if God has predestianted them for salvation is ubsurd!

Now here you go with your Calvinistic mindset, God does not predestinate anyone if they are outside of Jesus Christ.

It is only when a person (man or woman) is placed into the Body of Christ, that at that moment they are then predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). Also, at that point they are also predestinated to the adoption of children BY Jesus Christ unto Himself (the Father):



Ephesians 1:3-14 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You are basically saying God's sovereign will is a joke!

No I am not. I never said such a thing.



What I do know is that even though God is all powerful and mighty, He still gives man a freewill. And therefore, God holds man accountable and responsible for his own actions and choices.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Biblebeliever]No I view and see God as He reveals Himself in the pages of Scripture. For without the King James Holy Bible, I would have no idea about God's character and nature. The Holy Bible is the only tangible connection that a man has on this earth to God. [/quote]

Here it is...BB doesn't believe in the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit as gifted to the Church at Pentecost. In fact, BB has expressly substituted the place and power of the Spirit with his idol.

 

[Dunkard]

Alright, I'm already done reading this. Maybe the funny pages will be more intelligent.

Let me guess, another follower of Calvin?

Who?

 

[Recovering IFB]

Revelation 3:20 is not written to unbelievers. It is written to the believers at the church of Ladocia to return back to their first love, Christ!

But as instruction in righteousness, Rev. 3:20 can also be a picture and type to how Christ works on the heart of a lost sinner.

It's not a picture, the verse means what it says; you are stretching it to mean it say something it's not supposed to mean. It was written to believers.

To say somebody won't be saved because they "reject" God if God has predestianted them for salvation is ubsurd!

Now here you go with your Calvinistic mindset, God does not predestinate anyone if they are outside of Jesus Christ.

This statement makes no sense if you are trying to make a case.
and of course this verse doesn't make your case either;

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Biblebeliever]

Because nothing is more prideful than believing God is exclusively responsible for your salvation, rather than whatever it is about you that enabled you to make the right decision. 

While God Almighty is the Giver of Salvation. He still requires man to choose and receive Him as their Saviour.

Salvation by free will choice means that the difference between you and the unsaved is that you made the right decision, and they made the wrong decision.  Having made the right decision of your own free will, you have something about which to boast.  So, by your logic above, a free willer could never possibly repent and be saved, because his position is one of pride.   

The difference between me and the unsaved man is that I repented and placed my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And therefore, God saved me. IN Contrast, the Unsaved man has not repented and has not trusted Christ for his salvation. Therefore the reason why he is still unsaved and dead in his sins and trespasses. It is the unsaved man that stays in his pride.

You obviously don't have a clue what Calvinism is. 

I know what it generally is and what generally teaches.

Then how can you say it is God's will that everyone be saved?  If not everyone is saved, then SOMEONE thwarted God's will.

From Scripture:


1 Timothy 2:1-4 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.




2 Peter 3:8-9 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, [size=12pt]not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/size]

If not everyone is saved, then SOMEONE thwarted God's will.

Well if that is how you want to look at it, then that is you.

Because from what I read from Scripture, God's will is for all men to repent and be saved.

Which means that every lost soul who has died and who is now in Hell, all of those damned souls in Hell are out of the Directive Will of God for their lives.

Those damned souls are misfits in Hell. Because Hell was not created for them, but it was created for the Devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

 

[Biblebeliever]

But you said you read Institutes, that's not some, that's 1700 pages, what is it? did you read it or not?

Okay let me clarify, I've read several of the Institutes of the Christian Religion by Calvin. But not all of them.

My apologioes, I should have been more specific with my response in the first place.

And from what I can recall, these are some of the institutes which I have read:


- The Secret Operation of the Spirit.

- Knowledge of God

- The Fall of Adam, and Original Sin

- Knowledge of God in the Mind of humans

- The Eternal Election

And several others.

Also, I've read Calvin's supposed "refutation" of the line of arguments in support of Free Will. Which was not a refutation at all.

Since the Holy Scriptures teach that man is capable of making choices. Therefore, freewill does exist among mankind.

You said a man has to come to the end of himself to be repentant.  Strongs word for repent 3340,metanoeō, to feel sorry for ones past sins. where is it that one must come to the end of ones self? Thats is typical IFB, style preaching that puts guilt trips on people trying to make converts, rather that letting the Holy Spirit use Scripture to change people; vs. works salvation

A man must come to the end of himself in that he repents of his pride and self righteousness. A man cannot be saved until he knows he is a sinner. In other words, before one can be saved, they must be lost.

And besides, if a man says that he has believed on Jesus, but that same man is still counting on his self righteousness, and good works, and is still holding onto his pride, then guess what? That man has believed in vain (1 Cor. 15:2).  Because he has not truly repented. Until a man has a contrite spirit and is broken over his sins, he will not repent. And therefore, he will not truly come to Christ.

Arbitration? you mean like In Romans 9?

ROmans 9: 10 And not only that, but also Rebekah received a promise when she became pregnant by one man, our ancestor Isaac. 11 For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand— 12 not from works but from the One who calls—she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau.

God’s Selection Is Just

God's selection is just indeed.

14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses:

I will show mercy
to whom I will show mercy,
and I will have compassion
on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh:

I raised you up for this reason
so that I may display My power in you
and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
18 So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden.

19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? 23 And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory—

you call God arbitrary?

No, you Calvinists make out God to choose some to salvation, while choosing to damn many without any Standard which He established.

And therefore, you Calvinists make it look like God chooses some to salvation Arbitrarily.

When in reality, God gave His Son for all. The God of the Bible is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

But unfortunately you Calvinists just don't seem to get that fact.

No, if man were left to his own, he would not choose God, you know, there are none righteous, no one seeks after him! Man on his own would never choose God unless God changes mans heart, so man repents.

I understand that man is depraved.

But when the word of God comes and is presented to that man, then it is the word of God that empowers that man to respond to the Gospel.

It is the power of the Gospel which enables a man to act upon his own will and to then make his own choice.

And that choice is he is either going to receive or reject the word of God.

Eph 1:5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, I dont see where man gets to make a decision here.

Ephesians 1:5 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

God the Father chooses to predestinate those in Christ to the adoption of Children. Therefore, it is God's good pleasure and will to predestinate every new born again believer in Christ unto the adoption of Children by Jesus Christ.

The predestination takes place only for those who are ALREADY in Christ. In other words, the predestination does not take place outside of Jesus Christ.

Eph1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure that He planned in Him

Ephesians 1:6-10 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 13:44-50 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.

 

[Biblebeliever]

Here it is...BB doesn't believe in the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit as gifted to the Church at Pentecost. In fact, BB has expressly substituted the place and power of the Spirit with his idol.

Rsc2a, I do believe in the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.


The Holy Spirit is the main connection that we have to the Father.

But when it comes to something which can be touched and felt, the only physical and tangible connection that we have in knowing about the Godhead is the Holy Bible which is the Book which the Holy Ghost wrote and inspired.