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Saved by Grace

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Sadly heard that a member from a sister church in the area had a dear member pass away. The number of people attending would have been too large to hold in their auditorium so WHBC stepped forward and offered their auditorium.

Heard from those in attendance that had gone their in the past and had left for various reasons that the mood was very awkward  and the facial expression said it all when current WHBC and old WHBC saw each other.

Its just sad that when God leads someone somewhere else they have to be whipped by other Christians.
 
Saved by Grace said:
Its just sad that when God leads someone somewhere else they have to be whipped by other Christians.
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But that is the IFB way!!!
 
Just me said:
Saved by Grace said:
Its just sad that when God leads someone somewhere else they have to be whipped by other Christians.
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But that is the IFB way!!!
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Yes, we even do it here on the forum!
 
Just me said:
Saved by Grace said:
Its just sad that when God leads someone somewhere else they have to be whipped by other Christians.
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But that is the IFB way!!!
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No! This is the Hyles side of the IFB.
 
Bruh said:
Just me said:
Saved by Grace said:
Its just sad that when God leads someone somewhere else they have to be whipped by other Christians.
Click to expand...

But that is the IFB way!!!
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No! This is the Hyles side of the IFB.
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I would maintain that it is the way of a guilty man.  He knows that he is doing wrong and deceiving the people; when someone leaves because they have discovered this, it is critical to run down that person so that no one will believe the accusation.  Yes, Hyles used it, Bob Gray (TX) used it, the Vineyard family used it, as others.  They may have learned from Hyles how to, but people who use such tactics are showing that they do have guilt which they are trying to hide.
 
I agree with you Walt that guilt plays a role in this behavior. I just think its sad when Christians get together for a home going service that certain Christians feel led to give "cold shoulders" to others who followed God's leading rather than following a pastor they couldn't trust.

Its not like the people that left WHBC in the last 3 years left and stopped going to church and being involved in their community . They left and joined other nearby churches of like faith (ironically 2 of those churches are pastored by OBC grads, 2 of them have assistant pastors that are OBC grads, and 3 of them have music pastors or song leaders that are OBC grads , or former WHBC)

The Irony is that they are doing what they were trained to do  minus following the pastor off a cliff
 
Saved by Grace said:
I agree with you Walt that guilt plays a role in this behavior. I just think its sad when Christians get together for a home going service that certain Christians feel led to give "cold shoulders" to others who followed God's leading rather than following a pastor they couldn't trust.

Its not like the people that left WHBC in the last 3 years left and stopped going to church and being involved in their community . They left and joined other nearby churches of like faith (ironically 2 of those churches are pastored by OBC grads, 2 of them have assistant pastors that are OBC grads, and 3 of them have music pastors or song leaders that are OBC grads , or former WHBC)

The Irony is that they are doing what they were trained to do  minus following the pastor off a cliff
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I'm in agreement.  I've seen it in my own neck of the woods.  When people left that had knowledge of wrongdoing among the staff, they were savaged and had stories told about them so that nothing they said would be believed.  It was sad to see this happen to some families I knew - they were so bitterly denounced that they couldn't be around the other people for years.
 
Jim Vineyard's legacy and OBC (albeit in another name) lives on. Plus Caleb Garraway is carrying the banner for the Vineyards/OBC/WHBC and fundamentalism as he's "Pulling America".
 
TheAlvinChimpmunk said:
Jim Vineyard's legacy and OBC (albeit in another name) lives on. Plus Caleb Garraway is carrying the banner for the Vineyards/OBC/WHBC and fundamentalism as he's "Pulling America".
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Somebody within the WHBC/OBC orbit should write a biography of Jim Vineyard. No matter what you think of the man, he certainly lived an exciting life and participated in some of the biggest "circles" of the IFB during its heyday.
 
Some useful material for a Jim Vineyard biography - The time he advised Jews to tell President George W. Bush to go to hell:

Come And See - Pastor Jim Vineyard: Tell Bush to go to hell

Jim Vineyard accused of talking dirty to teenage female church members during "counseling:"

Fundamental Baptist church pastors cover up sex abuse, rape | Miami Herald

Jim Vineyard warns that if you leave his church, your children will die:

(18) Jim Vineyard Scare Tatics | Fighting Fundamental Forums

Jim Vineyard beats up on his staff:

(18) Jim Vineyard | Page 3 | Fighting Fundamental Forums
 
Please do not misunderstand me. Jim Vineyard was perhaps one of the worst "big-name" preachers in the IFB based on morality and personal conduct (J. Frank Norris, Jack Hyles, and Bob Gray of Jacksonville would probably surpass him in the rankings.)

Reading his story would be interesting, though. He was trained at Indiana Baptist College, and he may have actually learned under the tutelage of Ford Porter himself before that sainted man passed away.

How he went from a small, balanced school like IBC and from the circles of kind, meek men like Porter into the ranks of Hyles and the "jumboism" of Falwell must be a tall tale to end them all. If I could stomach The Fundamental Man, I do believe that I could handle a volume of Vineyard's exploits.
 
Old Judge, one of history's great mysteries is "Why did Jim leave Falwell?"
 
I bet old JAV's scare tactics turned THE Jesse Jackson and Joel McCarty into sissy woke libtards who wroship Biden and Fentanyl Floyd.
 
A biography of Jim Vineyard might be helpful, if it helps us to understand why it is that some people continue to follow arrogant, abusive, bullying and discredited preachers like Vineyard and Jack Hyles in the IFB movement, not to mention non-IFB creeps like Mark Driscoll, James MacDonald, Perry Noble, etc. How is it that churchgoers are persuaded to continue to obey leaders who bully them and treat them like dirt? What would it take to get the lay folks to see the light and flee such abusive situations?
 
Vince Massi said:
Old Judge, one of history's great mysteries is "Why did Jim leave Falwell?"
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Why did he leave Thomas Road?

Here is an interesting tidbit for you all. One of the former pastors of my church was the Executive Vice-President of Oklahoma Baptist College from 1979 to 1986. He must have known Jim Vineyard quite well.
 
WHY did people stay under Jim's leadership?

Many of them didn't. When I got there, I was amazed at how boring and powerless Jim's sermons were--at HAC, he was dynamite in the pulpit. As time went by, his core church dwindled, while his staff, college students (and their families) and bus kids increased heavily.

But in the beginning, Jim offered something most churches don't: results. Most churches rarely have people saved and baptized outside their own families. Jim brought in crowds. People saw their tithes and donations bringing in bus kids. Jim unsuccessfully took on the porn industry (and went down fighting) while most churches stood by helplessly doing nothing.

Some time after I left, Jim had 5,000 on a big day. Most Christians will never see their church do that, and they will never have a part in something like that.

Jim abused his staff and people who opposed him. But he rarely abused other people in the church.

Eventually, the declines got so bad that Jim could do little more than watch the church die under his leadership. He passed the throne onto his son, but the death of the church continued.
 
I never knew that Windsor Hills broke 5,000 in attendance. What was their average attendance during the "glory days"?
 
Jim's college eventually had over 500 students. Counting their families, that alone would have given him a good crowd. Pushing his bus ministry, Jim probably was running over 1,000.
One of Jim's great failures was running off his staff members. In the 22 months I was there, we had over 100% turn-over in staff, and almost all left because of Jim's abuse. We had better academics than Hyles-Anderson, better spiritual attitudes among the students, and a better high school than Hammond Baptist. But Jim drove off his best teachers, pulling down the quality of everything.
Talking to some of my former students over the decades (mostly on Facebook) it appears that Jim's behavior got steadily worse, and he began making more demands of his congregation.
 
WHBC never had 5000 even if you counted all the mice and roaches in that old building. If the auditorium was packed tight it might hold 2500-3000 including the balcony.
Was it ever packed? Maybe when Jack Hyles came through.
 
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