Salvation and Unreached Tribes

Darkwing Duck

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This question is mainly for people who believe salvation is through belief in Jesus Christ and trusting his finished work on the cross and resurrection as payment for sin.

I've always heard it taught that people who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible or God were still held accountable for their sin. The main passage used to illustrate this is Romans 1 - specifically verses 18-20.

Some questions:
1. Do you believe that non-Christians who have never heard of Jesus or God or the Bible are still accountable for their sin?
2. How do you reconcile this with the fact that God is just?
3. If you use Romans 1 or some other similar passage to say that those people still have the record of nature or heaven to point them to God then why can't I be saved in the same way? (I.E. Why did Jesus die if people can be "saved" through looking at creation?)

I've been struggling with this for a few days now and I just can't reconcile these points.
 
1. Yes.

Death IS the judgement of God toward the sin of man. This judgement has passed on to every man regardless of what he might know about it. This is taught in

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Notice the logical argument made by Paul. Even though there was no "written law" revealed through Moses.....Death reigned over man from Adam to Moses. Thus proving the "judgement of sin" still had effect regardless of one might think about the "imputation of sin". Even those who did not "sin" in the same manner in which "Adam" himself sinned. This illustrations proves that traditional doctrine of "original sin" and its effects on MANKIND.... or the offspring of Adam. God did not just judge Adam. He judged Adam and all his offspring. Regardless of what you think about the imputation of sin, the fact everyone "DIES" proves God's judgement extends to all of mankind. Even those who did not choose to "sin" like Adam did.

2. God is just in that He has included ALL UNDER SIN.

Rom 3:9  What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

There are no SPECIAL cases in which God has determined anyone exempt from his JUST decree.

3. You're looking at this the wrong way. You can't be saved through looking at creation. You can ONLY be saved through Christ. Paul made the argument in Romans 1 that mankind has no excuse to deny the existence of God. He recorded the FACT that that those of old KNEW HIM AS GOD. Yet, they DENIED HIM. The same can be said of anyone. The handy work of God in all of creation itself demands that everyone recognize the existence of SOMEONE greater than themselves.

If you recognize the existence of a "creator". Surely one should seek to find out who that Creator IS. This is taught in

Act 17:26  And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Now some would argue man can not seek after God but that is total nonsense. Act 17 and Paul's sermon PROVE differently. Don't listen to those that say differently. The Scriptures are true regardless of what anyone thinks of them.

Even John Gill (one of the most learned Calvinist that ever lived) really gave a silly response to such a verse when he wrote.
if haply they might feel after him, and find him; which shows, that though it is possible for men, by a contemplation of the perfections of God, visible in the works of creation and providence, so to find God, as to know that there is one, and that there is but one God, who has made all things; and so as to be convinced of the vanity and falsehood of all other gods, and to see the folly, wickedness, and weakness of idolatrous worship; yet, at the same time, it very strongly intimates, how dim and obscure the light of nature is; since those, who have nothing else to direct them, are like persons in the dark, who "feel" and grope about after God, whom they cannot see; and after all their search and groping, there is only an "haply", a peradventure, a may be, that they find him:

The ESV reads...
(ESV)  that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

 
Good Answer CU.

DD the justice question is answered for me at the flood.  I accept the biblical account of the flood as a complete deluge ending all human life.  With that as my starting point humanity would have to be responsible for the fact that all people have not heard of the God of Scriptures.  If only one family repopulated the earth then the fault in people not knowing the Gospel is not with God but with humanity's failure to communicate the knowledge of God to the generations that followed.
 
I have to go with Spurgeon on this one.

"But suppose it should be one of those [chosen, elect] who are living in the interior of Africa, and he does not hear the gospel; what then?" He shall hear the gospel; either he shall come to the gospel, or the gospel shall go to him. Even if no minister should go to such a chosen one, he would have the gospel specially revealed to him rather than that the promise of the Almighty God should be broken.

-Spurgeon


http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/sum&sub.htm
 
See also:

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.  (Romans 2:12-16 ESV)

 
Darkwing Duck said:
3. If you use Romans 1 or some other similar passage to say that those people still have the record of nature or heaven to point them to God then why can't I be saved in the same way? (I.E. Why did Jesus die if people can be "saved" through looking at creation?)

I've been struggling with this for a few days now and I just can't reconcile these points.

Surely we all agree that there is no difference in the way we are saved (by grace through faith in Jesus Christ).  I think you mean that you don't learn of salvation the same way.  Along this point, we have a more sure word.

2Pe 1:19-21  We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Not only do they have the testimony of nature, but the record itself - only it has been distorted through the ages.  A student of ancient religions can easily point out the similarities between those ancient religions and Christianity or Old Testament Judaism.  They had the truth, but became apostate (The remainder of Romans 1).  Read also stories of missionaries who translate a Bible to a native tribe.  So many of these, once they hear the truth recognize it as the actual truth from which their superstitions have swayed.  Think of how much heresy has crept into a denomination just over your lifetime.  Multiply that moving away from truth by a century.......
 
Thank you for your replies.

To be clear, there is no way for someone to have a chance to go to Heaven unless they are taught by a Christian or somehow receive a copy of the Bible?
 
Darkwing Duck said:
Thank you for your replies.

To be clear, there is no way for someone to have a chance to go to Heaven unless they are taught by a Christian or somehow receive a copy of the Bible?

In many ways this is correct. For example....

Act 8:30  And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31  And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

The Scripture are God's record of Works among mankind. It is the "teaching" of God to mankind.

Paul asked the question....

Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The "Scripture themselves" are hearing from a preacher.

To settle it once and or all in your mind, consider....

Act 17:29  Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
Act 17:30  The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31  because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

Do you think this covers everyone?

 
Darkwing Duck said:
Thank you for your replies.

To be clear, there is no way for someone to have a chance to go to Heaven unless they are taught by a Christian or somehow receive a copy of the Bible?

Wrong.  Jesus saves.  Bibles don't save.  Christians don't save. 
 
Castor Muscular said:
Darkwing Duck said:
Thank you for your replies.

To be clear, there is no way for someone to have a chance to go to Heaven unless they are taught by a Christian or somehow receive a copy of the Bible?

Wrong.  Jesus saves.  Bibles don't save.  Christians don't save.

This.

Of course, I am convinced someone can be Elect without having a having a clue who Jesus is (from a historical sense).
 
rsc2a said:
Castor Muscular said:
Darkwing Duck said:
Thank you for your replies.

To be clear, there is no way for someone to have a chance to go to Heaven unless they are taught by a Christian or somehow receive a copy of the Bible?

Wrong.  Jesus saves.  Bibles don't save.  Christians don't save.

This.

Of course, I am convinced someone can be Elect without having a having a clue who Jesus is (from a historical sense).

Really. How do you separate the "historical" Jesus from the message of the Gospel? Does the historical death, historical burial, and historical resurrection mean anything? Does "eye witness" mean anything to the message of the Gospel?
 
Castor Muscular said:
Darkwing Duck said:
Thank you for your replies.

To be clear, there is no way for someone to have a chance to go to Heaven unless they are taught by a Christian or somehow receive a copy of the Bible?

Wrong.  Jesus saves.  Bibles don't save.  Christians don't save.

Not that disagree with what you wrote. I does seem you believe in regeneration before a man can seek Christ?
 
christundivided said:
Not that disagree with what you wrote. I does seem you believe in regeneration before a man can seek Christ?

I personally think that line of reasoning is a waste of time. 

All the Father gives Jesus SHALL come to Him.  No ifs, ands, or buts. 

That's true regardless of anyone's opinion about regeneration. 
 
Castor Muscular said:
christundivided said:
Not that disagree with what you wrote. I does seem you believe in regeneration before a man can seek Christ?

I personally think that line of reasoning is a waste of time. 

All the Father gives Jesus SHALL come to Him.  No ifs, ands, or buts. 

That's true regardless of anyone's opinion about regeneration.

Yet, the Scripture mentioned doesn't explain just "how" the Father goes about establishing such. If, you don't understand the "how", you can't really say you understand the statement or that you can take it a "face value".  The "how" is important. The statement is explained just a little further on in the discourse.

John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It does NOT say that the Father causes some to see the Son and causes some not to see the Son. I think it wise if we identify God's action from the variable action of man.

My children have liked to use my words to their advantage in the past. For example, I might say "Yes, you can have Ice Cream after you finish your homework". An hour later after they've gotten mad because they didn't get something else their way, they finish their homework. So they expect some "Ice Cream". They forget entirely the rules of the "house" that demand they be punished for their actions. All they remember is I promised them "Ice Cream". In like manner many people just read or hear what they want to "hear" said to them. I'm not saying you're a child. I'm just giving an illustration of how people only see what they want to see. We all do it. Its important to take everything into consideration.
 
christundivided said:
Yet, the Scripture mentioned doesn't explain just "how" the Father goes about establishing such. If, you don't understand the "how", you can't really say you understand the statement or that you can take it a "face value".  The "how" is important. The statement is explained just a little further on in the discourse.

John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes, you can take it at face value.  It is an authoritative statement with no qualifications.  All the Father gives Me SHALL come to Me.  Period.  No qualifications. 

It even eliminates the issue of "how" in the very next line.  "And him that comes to Me I will in no wise cast out."  So it doesn't matter HOW we come to Him, because Jesus guarantees acceptance regardless of HOW we come. 

If the Father gives us to Jesus, we will come.  And regardless of how we come, Jesus will in no way reject us. 

You can speculate on all the details you want, but it doesn't negate or modify those basic facts. 
 
Castor Muscular said:
christundivided said:
Yet, the Scripture mentioned doesn't explain just "how" the Father goes about establishing such. If, you don't understand the "how", you can't really say you understand the statement or that you can take it a "face value".  The "how" is important. The statement is explained just a little further on in the discourse.

John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes, you can take it at face value.  It is an authoritative statement with no qualifications.  All the Father gives Me SHALL come to Me.  Period.  No qualifications. 

It even eliminates the issue of "how" in the very next line.  "And him that comes to Me I will in no wise cast out."  So it doesn't matter HOW we come to Him, because Jesus guarantees acceptance regardless of HOW we come. 

If the Father gives us to Jesus, we will come.  And regardless of how we come, Jesus will in no way reject us. 

You can speculate on all the details you want, but it doesn't negate or modify those basic facts.

Sure they are qualifications. Do you honestly believe that verse 40 has nothing to do with verse 37?

In your view... should we just remove verse 40 from the dialogue recorded?

Many people don't go to Jesus Himself. They go to some imaginary idol they created of Him. Some vain representation of who they think He is. They have to go to HIM. The "How" often indicates "who" they are actually trying to go to. You can't ignore the "how".
 
christundivided said:
rsc2a said:
Castor Muscular said:
Darkwing Duck said:
Thank you for your replies.

To be clear, there is no way for someone to have a chance to go to Heaven unless they are taught by a Christian or somehow receive a copy of the Bible?

Wrong.  Jesus saves.  Bibles don't save.  Christians don't save.

This.

Of course, I am convinced someone can be Elect without having a having a clue who Jesus is (from a historical sense).

Really. How do you separate the "historical" Jesus from the message of the Gospel? Does the historical death, historical burial, and historical resurrection mean anything? Does "eye witness" mean anything to the message of the Gospel?

Who said I separate those two? Yes. In part.

Question: can someone participate in any type of restoration/reconciliation of any part of creation even if they don't know Jesus (in a historical sense)?
 
christundivided said:
Castor Muscular said:
christundivided said:
Not that disagree with what you wrote. I does seem you believe in regeneration before a man can seek Christ?

I personally think that line of reasoning is a waste of time. 

All the Father gives Jesus SHALL come to Him.  No ifs, ands, or buts. 

That's true regardless of anyone's opinion about regeneration.

Yet, the Scripture mentioned doesn't explain just "how" the Father goes about establishing such. If, you don't understand the "how", you can't really say you understand the statement or that you can take it a "face value".  The "how" is important. The statement is explained just a little further on in the discourse.

John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It does NOT say that the Father causes some to see the Son and causes some not to see the Son. I think it wise if we identify God's action from the variable action of man.

So you aren't saved? Have you seen Jesus?
 
[quote author=christundivided]Many people don't go to Jesus Himself. They go to some imaginary idol they created of Him. Some vain representation of who they think He is. They have to go to HIM. The "How" often indicates "who" they are actually trying to go to. You can't ignore the "how".[/quote]

Therein lies the problem...

Is compassion or knowledge more important?
 
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