SBC vs. AOG

[Twisted]

I don't find in the Bible where a woman cannot be a preacher.

True.  But they are forbidden to hold authority over men in the local assembly, which means they cannot pastor.

...

The fact that patriarchalists continue to insist on this is the reason that we egalitarians have to produce detailed defenses of our position and refutations of yours.

Huh?  I'm on meds, man, use plain English.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I don't find in the Bible where a woman cannot be a preacher.

True.  But they are forbidden to hold authority over men in the local assembly, which means they cannot pastor.

...

The fact that patriarchalists continue to insist on this is the reason that we egalitarians have to produce detailed defenses of our position and refutations of yours.

Huh?  I'm on meds, man, use plain English.

"Patriarchalist" refers to those who insist that no woman may ever hold the highest position of authority in a church.  Some insist that no woman may ever be in any position of authority over men in a church.  People who hold the view often hide behind the deceptive and less accurate term, "complementarian."

"Egalitarians" are those of us who believe that Scripture teaches that men and women are absolutely equal in terms of authority, and that there are no functions or offices -- teacher, evangelist, overseer, apostle, etc. -- that are permitted to one sex but denied to the other.  Often we also embrace the term, "mutualist," especially in the context of the domestic codes of Eph. 5-6, because 5:21 and 6:9 constitute an inclusio, and indicate much of the passage is to be understood in terms of reciprocity.

The fact that patriarchalists reliably bring in certain passages to "disprove" egalitarianism is what requires us to address those passages in some detail.

I'm sorry if that is still not clear.  Maybe see about getting some different meds.

 

[prophet]

I don't find in the Bible where a woman cannot be a preacher.

True.  But they are forbidden to hold authority over men in the local assembly, which means they cannot pastor.

...

The fact that patriarchalists continue to insist on this is the reason that we egalitarians have to produce detailed defenses of our position and refutations of yours.

Huh?  I'm on meds, man, use plain English.

"Patriarchalist" refers to those who insist that no woman may ever hold the highest position of authority in a church.  Some insist that no woman may ever be in any position of authority over men in a church.  People who hold the view often hide behind the deceptive and less accurate term, "complementarian."

"Egalitarians" are those of us who believe that Scripture teaches that men and women are absolutely equal in terms of authority, and that there are no functions or offices -- teacher, evangelist, overseer, apostle, etc. -- that are permitted to one sex but denied to the other.  Often we also embrace the term, "mutualist," especially in the context of the domestic codes of Eph. 5-6, because 5:21 and 6:9 constitute an inclusio, and indicate much of the passage is to be understood in terms of reciprocity.

The fact that patriarchalists reliably bring in certain passages to "disprove" egalitarianism is what requires us to address those passages in some detail.

I'm sorry if that is still not clear.  Maybe see about getting some different meds.

Its ok, you found a different god, so it really doesn't matter....

earnestly contend

 

[NorrinRadd]

I don't find in the Bible where a woman cannot be a preacher.

True.  But they are forbidden to hold authority over men in the local assembly, which means they cannot pastor.

...

The fact that patriarchalists continue to insist on this is the reason that we egalitarians have to produce detailed defenses of our position and refutations of yours.

Huh?  I'm on meds, man, use plain English.

"Patriarchalist" refers to those who insist that no woman may ever hold the highest position of authority in a church.  Some insist that no woman may ever be in any position of authority over men in a church.  People who hold the view often hide behind the deceptive and less accurate term, "complementarian."

"Egalitarians" are those of us who believe that Scripture teaches that men and women are absolutely equal in terms of authority, and that there are no functions or offices -- teacher, evangelist, overseer, apostle, etc. -- that are permitted to one sex but denied to the other.  Often we also embrace the term, "mutualist," especially in the context of the domestic codes of Eph. 5-6, because 5:21 and 6:9 constitute an inclusio, and indicate much of the passage is to be understood in terms of reciprocity.

The fact that patriarchalists reliably bring in certain passages to "disprove" egalitarianism is what requires us to address those passages in some detail.

I'm sorry if that is still not clear.  Maybe see about getting some different meds.

Its ok, you found a different god, so it really doesn't matter....

earnestly contend

Would you care to take the time to explain your conclusion that I've "found a different god"?

 

[prophet]

I don't find in the Bible where a woman cannot be a preacher.

True.  But they are forbidden to hold authority over men in the local assembly, which means they cannot pastor.

...

The fact that patriarchalists continue to insist on this is the reason that we egalitarians have to produce detailed defenses of our position and refutations of yours.

Huh?  I'm on meds, man, use plain English.

"Patriarchalist" refers to those who insist that no woman may ever hold the highest position of authority in a church.  Some insist that no woman may ever be in any position of authority over men in a church.  People who hold the view often hide behind the deceptive and less accurate term, "complementarian."

"Egalitarians" are those of us who believe that Scripture teaches that men and women are absolutely equal in terms of authority, and that there are no functions or offices -- teacher, evangelist, overseer, apostle, etc. -- that are permitted to one sex but denied to the other.  Often we also embrace the term, "mutualist," especially in the context of the domestic codes of Eph. 5-6, because 5:21 and 6:9 constitute an inclusio, and indicate much of the passage is to be understood in terms of reciprocity.

The fact that patriarchalists reliably bring in certain passages to "disprove" egalitarianism is what requires us to address those passages in some detail.

I'm sorry if that is still not clear.  Maybe see about getting some different meds.

Its ok, you found a different god, so it really doesn't matter....

earnestly contend

Would you care to take the time to explain your conclusion that I've "found a different god"?

Nah, wouldn't want to interrupt your fun.

earnestly contend

 

[Twisted]

"Egalitarians" are those of us who believe that Scripture teaches that men and women are absolutely equal in terms of authority, and that there are no functions or offices -- teacher, evangelist, overseer, apostle, etc. -- that are permitted to one sex but denied to the other.  Often we also embrace the term, "mutualist," especially in the context of the domestic codes of Eph. 5-6, because 5:21 and 6:9 constitute an inclusio, and indicate much of the passage is to be understood in terms of reciprocity.

And here I thought I was screwed up!

 

[subllibrm]

I don't find in the Bible where a woman cannot be a preacher.

True.  But they are forbidden to hold authority over men in the local assembly, which means they cannot pastor.

...

The fact that patriarchalists continue to insist on this is the reason that we egalitarians have to produce detailed defenses of our position and refutations of yours.

Translation: we don't like what scripture says so we expound upon our own logic  to deny what is clearly taught.

 

[Walt]

I don't find in the Bible where a woman cannot be a preacher.

True.  But they are forbidden to hold authority over men in the local assembly, which means they cannot pastor.

...

The fact that patriarchalists continue to insist on this is the reason that we egalitarians have to produce detailed defenses of our position and refutations of yours.

So, can you summarize?

Seems to me that you have mixed up two different things. In our standing before God, all are equal: everyone has sinned.  In salvation, all is equal - there is no difference between free and slave, rich and poor, men and women - all must be saved through faith in Jesus Christ.  There is not a "rich man's" way of salvation, nor an American way to be saved.  All are equal here.

But equally true in Scripture is different instructions for different people.  In the book of Titus, there are instructions for older men, younger men, older women, and younger women. There are instructions given for children and parents, for masters and servants, for husbands and wives.

Why should it be thought odd that there are different rules for men and women in the church?

 

[NorrinRadd]

Sorry about the delay.  I had a nice thorough reply in progress days ago, and my computer bonked.  I haven't had a chance to focus on redoing it.

 

[sword]

I do see a comical side to their VERY long, very deep theological expositions on why it is all right to have women preachers.

I find it more sad than comical.
It really shouldn't be necessary to adduce as support much more than Acts 2:17-18 and Gal. 3:28, but stiff-necked ignorant patriarchalists insist on wielding their various "clobber texts," and egalitarians are rather obliged to answer.

I clearly have been interpreting it all wrong for 50 years. Help me with those clobber verses you were talking about. Perhaps I have been reading too much into them.

Start with Paul's instruction to Timothy in Ephesians 5. Can you break this down for me regarding what Paul intended. I have always felt women can have a great role in ministry and they are critical in the smooth operation of most churches. The role of the pastors wife and other older women is critical in the instruction and training of christian ladies. I also don't see any reason why they could not lead men in some capacities but God through Paul's writings does seem to have an issue with it. Please break down Eph 5 for men so I can better understand what it really means.

 

[sword]

Also help me with some of the other "clobber verses" as to what they mean?
1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2:11-14 - Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 

Titus 2:3-5 - The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;   

1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 

1 Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Timothy 2:12-14 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 

1 Corinthians 6:1-20 - Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?   

Titus 2:3 - The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

 

[Vince Massi]

Sword, your post explains why the AOG must devote large amounts of theology to justify having women preachers.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Also help me with some of the other "clobber verses" as to what they mean?
1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2:11-14 - Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 

Titus 2:3-5 - The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;   

1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 

1 Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Timothy 2:12-14 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 

1 Corinthians 6:1-20 - Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?   

Titus 2:3 - The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

Well, the first thing they mean to me is that you must have a bee up your tailpipe along with your head, or else you would not have used the 1 Tim. 2 citations three times in the same post.

I'll get back to you with a more substantive reply after I look back over the thread and redo that post I was working on when my browser crashed.

 

[sword]

I was not clear in my purpose for posting it 3 times.

1. Please address the "suffer not a woman to teach".
2. Please address the "nor to usurp authority over the man".
3. Please address the " to be in silence".

I intended to highlight the respective points for each listing, but failed to do so. Address the 3 points and you get triple credit for one verse. 

 

[Route_70]

I was not clear in my purpose for posting it 3 times.

1. Please address the "suffer not a woman to teach".
2. Please address the "nor to usurp authority over the man".
3. Please address the " to be in silence".

I intended to highlight the respective points for each listing, but failed to do so. Address the 3 points and you get triple credit for one verse.

According to the Route 70 complete set of Bible commentaries, the Bible is very clear here:  The Apostle Paul is instructing a young man about the duties and place of a woman:  in the kitchen or in the nursery.

 

[sword]

I was not clear in my purpose for posting it 3 times.
1. Please address the "suffer not a woman to teach".
2. Please address the "nor to usurp authority over the man".
3. Please address the " to be in silence".
I intended to highlight the respective points for each listing, but failed to do so. Address the 3 points and you get triple credit for one verse.

According to the Route 70 complete set of Bible commentaries, the Bible is very clear here:  The Apostle Paul is instructing a young man about the duties and place of a woman:  in the kitchen or in the nursery.

And in training the young women and it is assumed the children.

Titus 2
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

There are many things a women can do in ministry, being in charge of the men is not one of them. Most ministries would be in trouble if it were not for the women who serve in them. Much like our homes, without mom things can get out of control fast. 

 

[Route_70]

It will be a cold day in hell before I get my theology from a woman.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It will be a cold day in hell before I get my theology from a woman.

I think you need to complete your degree at Big Al's Temple of Theology and Whoopie Cushion Emporium!

 

[Route_70]

I think you need to complete your degree at Big Al's Temple of Theology and Whoopie Cushion Emporium!

I have my own set of Bible commentaries; what do I need with a degree?

 

[bgwilkinson]

It will be a cold day in hell before I get my theology from a woman.

Do you think Apollos was of the same opinion?