christundivided said:
Let me get this straight..... All believer before the introduction of the law.... were saved by faith/believing in what God said....
Well actually I need to correct myself; looking further into this study of how salvation was in the Old Testament, I am starting to see that there were an element of works for even Old Testament saints who lived before the giving of the Mosaic Law.
For instance, take Noah. How was Noah saved?
Well God commanded and told Noah to build an ark of Gopher wood. And how did Moses react?
He obeyed:
Genesis 6:22
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
22
Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
Now what helped me to understand the fact that an element of works has consistently been present for salvation even before the Law, is by the simple fact that the Old Testament Saints will show up at the Great White Throne Judgment to be judged by their works.
In other words, the Great White Throne Judgment is not just for the wicked dead, but it is also for the Old Testament saints:
Revelation 20:11-15
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Noah's judgment will take place at the Great White Throne Judgment. And so will Adam and Eve's. Saints in the Millennial Kingdom will also be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.
Knowing this; therefore, an element of works were involved with faith for salvation even before the time of the Mosaic Law.
The word 'faith' is only found two times in the entire Old Testament.
christundivided said:
YET, those born after the law were required to keep the law to be saved?
Is that what you're saying? ( I know that is what you're saying.... because I've meet many nuts like you before)
There are many problems with what you've said. Many.... Lets just deal with one for now.
First, lets review what Paul said in Romans 4
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Read it again......
Now I know you're going to say this was a different dispensation. I know that is coming ..... so let me stop you before you do.
Fast forward to Galatians.... or rather rewind in the life of Paul....
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
In regard to Galatians 3:18, why don't we quote in context:
Galatians 3:12-24
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
12 And the law is not of faith: but,
The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law?
It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
What Paul basically said is that the Law cannot disannul the covenant that God confirmed in Christ.
He also said that before faith came, we were kept under the law.
christundivided said:
Now slow down..... Don't spend 10,000 words to explain just how the "law" changed anything when it comes to man being saved?
Paul clearly taught that believers were saved by faith alone BEFORE THE LAW..... He then says very clearly that the promises made to that believers could not be "disannuled" or the promise made " of none effect".
Is Paul really teaching that? Or is that simply according to your interpretation of the passage???
christundivided said:
So tell me HOW your silly doctrine deals with this. Paul clear uses the fact that the promises were made before the law.... and THUS.....the law could not change those promises. You're saying the exact opposite. You're using the same Scriptures to say that LOT was saved through faith... PLUS NOTHING.... and then claiming those after the law could not be saved the "same" way.
I agree that the Law could not change those promises.
But that still does not mean that Old Testament saints were saved the same way we are today. You have to keep in mind that when a person in the Old Testament was saved, the righteousness which was imputed to him was based upon the works which he did.
Another thing that is important to note is that righteousness in the Old Testament does not ever mean sinlessness.
The righteousness which the Old Testament saints had was their own.
christundivided said:
What a silly silly thing to say. Its in direct opposition to what is taught in the Scriptures. The truth is... The law WAS NEVER GIVEN TO SAVE ANYTHING. Not now. Not then. NEVER.... under any 'dispensation" you think you understand.
If what you say here is true; well then what about this passage of Scripture:
Ezekiel 18:1-20
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
18 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying, 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But
if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 and hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 and hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 he that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 11
and that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour’s wife, 12 hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13 hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done,
and considereth, and doeth not such like, 15
that hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife, 16 neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, 17 that hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father?
When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
This passage here in Ezekiel 18 clearly teaches that a man is saved by his works and by his righteousness.
If you still do not believe that this is the case, then let us look now at the remaining passage of Ezekiel 18:
Ezekiel 18:21-32
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
21 But
if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed,
and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him:
in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But
when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again,
when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth,
and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Now do you realize what you just read?
You just read how a man in the Old Testament was saved. Ezekiel 18 teaches that a man was saved by doing the right kind of works (see verses 5-9, 15-17), if a man did that which was lawful and right, he was saved and lived. But if that same man turned from his righteousness and committed iniquity and if he did not repent, that man would then die and go to Hell.
WORKS... WORKS.... WORKS.
Again see verses 5-9 & 15-17. A man was justified by doing those very works which Ezekiel lists in those verses I shared.
Now read the passage and study it. And don't try to "greekify it" or "explain it away." Just leave the verses as they stand.
They clearly teach that if a man did that which was right (works) he would then live (salvation).
Salvation by works with an element of faith.
Therefore, if Old Testament saints were saved by works, that also must means that under the dispensation of the Mosaic Covenant, they were saved by obeying the Law.
