The Free Will Challenge

[Ransom]

How does God cause a human to sin without being at least in part culpable for that sin?

Not all questions are easily answered, but nonetheless we have to accept them because Scripture says so explicitly.

Joseph's brothers acted wickedly selling Joseph into slavery; nonetheless, "God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20). Along the same lines, we could also cite God's use of the Babylonians to judge the southern kingdom, or the crucifixion of Jesus "by the hand of lawless men" (Acts 2:23) but also by God's "hand and [his] plan" (Acts 4:28).

If God had plans or intent, he was not merely a passive observer of sin: in some meaningful and more fundamental sense, he caused the sin to come to pass, and to deny such would be to deny the truth of Scripture itself. So we might as well ask you how God is not the author of sin.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Not all questions are easily answered, but nonetheless we have to accept them because Scripture says so explicitly.

Joseph's brothers acted wickedly selling Joseph into slavery; nonetheless, "God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20). If God had intent, he was not merely a passive observer: in some meaningful sense, he caused the sin come to pass, and to deny such would be to deny the truth of Scripture itself. So we might as well ask you how God is not the author of sin.

Lol, I hate you (was just waiting for that question ). Not even going to try to answer that, as I disavow the weak god that walks the paths of Open Theism. Ok, for a more truthful answer. It scares me that there could be one molecule in the universe that is not under the sovereign control of God, and I fully acknowledge the truth of what you said Scripture clearly states (Joseph, and the wicked hands of men putting the Lord of glory on the cross). Therefore, I lean very Calvinistic in my theological underpinnings, but prefer to remain non-comital until I have a better grasp of the full-orbed entanglements of the streams of thought relating to the various forms of determinism.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Not being cheeky here, genuinely interested in the highlighted (#1) statement above. As it is worded, you stated that this is an extreme of the Calvinist spectrum in God ordaining all that comes to pass. I had thought that Calvinists would affirm no matter the severity/heinousness of an action that it still fell under the precept that God "ordains all that comes to pass", including the most heinous of human acts. Are you suggesting by your statement #1 that is not the case?

God does ordain all that comes to pass and everything comes to pass in one of two ways:

1. According to God's active (directive or decretive) will: God CAUSES it to happen
2. According to God's passive (permissive) will: God ALLOWS it to happen

1 + 2 = GOD WORKS ALL THINGS TOGETHER ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE FOR HIS GLORY!

That is about as good of an explanation as you will get out of me! I'm just a dumb Seminary student working on a paltry MATS degree! If I still had that Doctrate from Pickle U, I could probably answer it better but it got misplaced somewhere with my last move!

Anyone Know were Dr. Phil Armenik is these days? I bet he could answer it much better!

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Not all questions are easily answered, but nonetheless we have to accept them because Scripture says so explicitly.

Joseph's brothers acted wickedly selling Joseph into slavery; nonetheless, "God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20). Along the same lines, we could also cite God's use of the Babylonians to judge the southern kingdom, or the crucifixion of Jesus "by the hand of lawless men" (Acts 2:23) but also by God's "hand and [his] plan" (Acts 4:28).

If God had plans or intent, he was not merely a passive observer of sin: in some meaningful and more fundamental sense, he caused the sin to come to pass, and to deny such would be to deny the truth of Scripture itself. So we might as well ask you how God is not the author of sin.

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannotbe tempted with evil,neither tempteth he any man: If God preordained Adam to disobey Him when He commanded him to not eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then Adam did not disobey God He followed his programming, which would Mean God broke His own command not Adam. God is neither duplicitous nor deceitful.

 

[Ransom]

If God preordained Adam to disobey Him when He commanded him to not eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then Adam did not disobey God He followed his programming, which would Mean God broke His own command not Adam. God is neither duplicitous nor deceitful.

Why are you acting like an unbeliever and trying to pit Scripture against Scripture?

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Why are you acting like an unbeliever and trying to pit Scripture against Scripture?

The unbelievers attribute evil to God.Fact: God commanded Adam to not eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Fact: if God preordained Adam to disobey Him then God broke His command to Adam. God is neither duplicitous nor dishonest as Calvinist make Him to be.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

The unbelievers attribute evil to God.Fact: God commanded Adam to not eat off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Fact: if God preordained Adam to disobey Him then God broke His command to Adam. God is neither duplicitous nor dishonest as Calvinist make Him to be.

Yep, When God created the heavens and the earth, he intended everything to be all "Rainbows and Lollipops" and "Warm Fluffy Bunnies" for all of eternity BUUUUUUUT NOOOOOOOOO! Adam had to mess everything up and partake of that dastardly fruit!

Poor God! All his plans up in smoke because Adam failed to keep his wife under subjection!

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Yep, When God created the heavens and the earth, he intended everything to be all "Rainbows and Lollipops" and "Warm Fluffy Bunnies" for all of eternity BUUUUUUUT NOOOOOOOOO! Adam had to mess everything up and partake of that dastardly fruit!

Poor God! All his plans up in smoke because Adam failed to keep his wife under subjection!

God did not create man to fail they did that all on their own, but the disobedience was known before the failure.

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,neither tempteth he any man:

 

[Baptist Renegade]

God did not create man to fail they did that all on their own, but the disobedience was known before the failure.

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,neither tempteth he any man:

And how is this different from the Calvinist (Infralapsarian) view?

 

[Leatherneck0311]

And how is this different from the Calvinist (Infralapsarian) view?

Again:

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,neither tempteth he any man: based on the verse where do you see anywhere in scripture that God preordained Adam to disobey Him ? Hint: there is no scripture to support that God preordained Adam to disobey Him none.

 

[Ransom]

Fact: if God preordained Adam to disobey Him then God broke His command to Adam.

Fact: This is codswallop.

God is not bound by a command he gave to Adam, and therefore could not have broken it.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Again:

Jas 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,neither tempteth he any man: based on the verse where do you see anywhere in scripture that God preordained Adam to disobey Him ? Hint: there is no scripture to support that God preordained Adam to disobey Him none.

I am guessing by pre-ordained, you mean that God actively decreed the fall of Adam? Please go back and study what an Infralapsarian Calvinist believes about this. Chapter, verse, reference citations, Etc.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Fact: This is codswallop.

Nope, it is Calvinism confusion attributing evil to God. God does not lie nor is He duplicitous.

 

[Ransom]

Poor God! All his plans up in smoke because Adam failed to keep his wife under subjection!

"Oops. Never saw that coming." - God, probably

 

[Leatherneck0311]

I am guessing by pre-ordained, you mean that God actively decreed the fall of Adam? Please go back and study what an Infralapsarian Calvinist believes about this. Chapter, verse, reference citations, Etc.

Noun. infralapsarianism (uncountable) (theology) A doctrine held by certain Calvinists holding that, while the fall of man was inevitable, the identities of the elect and the reprobate were not known until after the fall. God being omniscient knows everything there is to know so I don’t spend my time studying the philosophies of men.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Nope, it is Calvinism confusion attributing evil to God. God does not lie nor is He duplicitous.

Instead of bearing false witness against those who are called "Brothers," please go and study the actual historical position for yourself and then tell us where you disagree.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

"Oops. Never saw that coming." - God, probably

A better question is why do Calvinist study and name themselves after a dead Roman Catholic theologian.

 

[Ransom]

Nope, it is Calvinism confusion attributing evil to God. God does not lie nor is He duplicitous.

I'm not confused, though you obviously like to cover up your own confusion and ignorance with bluster.

 

[Ransom]

A better question is why do Calvinist study and name themselves after a dead Roman Catholic theologian.

No, that's not a better question. It's just a distraction.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

I'm not confused, though you obviously like to cover up your own confusion and ignorance with bluster.

Lol, not even close . I know what “ the whole world” means( 1 John 2:2) , I know what “ whosoever believes” means. Romans 10:13 says whosoever calls on the Lord will be saved. Revelation 22:17 exposes Calvinism as the confusion and lie that it is. I follow a risen savior not a dead Roman Catholic theologian. You might want to give following Jesus a try.