The Marriage of David and Jonathan

Smellin Coffee

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Yep. Based on (biblical) context and Rabbinical hermeneutic of Talmud, David and Jonathan were not only lovers, but married.

String of X posts by a Rabbi into a single thread:

So let's get the obvious stuff out of the way. David was bisexual, and he and Jonathan were lovers. The evidence in the text of this is strong. And while some may deny it, those are the same men who scream that Song of Songs is about Israel and God. So let's go through this. We read in 1st Samuel 18 that Jonathan's "nefesh" his soul, became "nik'sh'ra" (bound up or binded) with the "nefesh" of David. Soul on soul love. Deep love. This is not friendship. This is soulmates. Moreover, from a Hebrew point of view, the word "nik'sh'ra" is.a word that is parced in the perfect third feminine singular. There is a "feminine" aspect to Jonathan, a slim young man, in contrast to David's masculinity. There is an attraction of souls that occurs, and (there is a scribal error here, see below) but one loved the other as himself. For those pointing back to the Levitical idea of a neighbor...NO. The wording is totally different there. There is no "nefesh" mentioned in the loving on one's countryman/fellow/neighbor. This is a different love. The author was purposeful here.

And, it is right here, friends, in verses 1 Samuel 18: 2, 3, and 4 that a marriage takes place. In the Ancient Near East, the three elements that made a marriage were 1) A parental exchange, i.e. moving from one house to another, 2) a vow or covenant, and 3) a gift. We see each of these in the following verses. Before we do so, keep in mind that these elements eventually evolved into a parent's "blessing" after it was transactional, the vows given at a wedding ceremony, and a ring (i.e. the gift exchange). But these were not the traditions of the time, so we have to be careful not to look for 21st century marriage clues in a biblical text. All three are there, and here we go. 1Sam 18:2 - Saul, the father of Jonathan, takes David into his family, (into his service is not in the text but implied)and David no longer returns to his father's house because, why would he? He is marrying Saul's son! Once a marriage occurs, one of the people married leaves their father's house and goes to another house.

It is at this point, once the parental exchange is done, that the vow comes in: Jonathan and David, standing together, made a "brit" a covenant with one another. Again the words "nefesh" are used. The word "brit" is not a friendly "pact" as the translator lead you to seethe words are well known in Jewish wedding ceremonies that a "brit" is an everlasting covenant between two people, and that exactly what David and Jonathan did with one another. Their souls make a pact together to be together, it is quite beautiful!

And finally, we come to the gift. In verse 4, Jonathan takes off his cloak and tunic, and gives them to David, with his sword, his bow, his belt. While commentators struggle to understand this gesture, those who understand Near Eastern wedding rituals see it clearly. It is the gift from one person to another to solidify the third step of a wedding ritual of the time.

Now, how about some supplementary evidence to help? Remember in 1Sam 18:17, Saul attempts to have David married off to his daughter, Merab. You know, a woman. David's answer to him, when seen through the lens we have built with the wedding ritual that just occurred is actually quite funny. A young man who will be come king says to Saul (see text below) but seriously dude, "I'm already your son-in-law." And then he runs out the clockon Merab so she marries someone else. Pretty sneaky and genius.

Verse 20 tells us that another of Saul's daughters, Michal, wants to marry David too, and Saul thinks, "Ok let's try this woman." David finally catches on that this is the way to the throne, and marries her. Keep in mind, friends, that a King can have many wives, so this was not a big deal that he was secretly married to Jonathan, and publicly married to Michal. We can see Saul had some inkling of the marriage of David and Jonathan by 1Sam 20. And the bond between Jonathan and David is more than just friendship, it is soulmates, put together by love and ancient ritual:And it is in verse 32-33, that the mystery of why Saul wishes to murder David is now (perhaps) clear. David has done no wrong, but perhaps Saul has figured out that he and Jonathan have been married. Later in 1Sam 20:42, we see loving language, kissing and crying, and Jonathan again reiterating that they have sworn to each other in the name of God!

Now, are there plenty of people who will disagree with this interpretation? Those who will say they were just "close friends," that the ritual exchanges and vows meant something else, that their souls were bound together in friendship? That Saul's jealousy was the cause? Of course! And that is perfectly fine. But one cannot ignore the cultural repertoire of an ancient near eastern wedding ritual, the elements of them coming together, and the actions of the two, the love language, and the events that come after without saying..."hmmm".
THE END.

Source:
 
Sorry, no time for the delusional drool of Harvey the Invisible Rabbi today.

Coincidentally, I was wondering just yesterday when Smellin was going to pull out the "David and Jonathan were gay" schtick. LGBTQWERTYWTF++ isn't just the psycho-fundies' favourite kink.
 
Now, are there plenty of people who will disagree with this interpretation? Those who will say they were just "close friends," that the ritual exchanges and vows meant something else, that their souls were bound together in friendship?
Yep…he got that part right at least.
 
Yet all of the marriage examples, instructions and metaphors are of a man and a woman. The quality of this scholarship is on par with worrying about who pisseth on the wall.
 
That rabbi is obviously misinterpreting the scripture because of his personal bias and hermeneutic.
 
I see Harvey the Rabbi and this "argument" all over social media right now.

Smellin isn't even thinking for himself. He's just parroting The Latest Thing.

Most of these "progressive" clowns don't really believe in the Old Testament's historicity anyway. It makes no difference one way or the other whether two story characters were gay. So it's baffling why they think we should care.
 
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Most of these "progressive" clowns don't really believe in the Old Testament's historicity anyway. It makes no difference one way or the other whether two story characters were gay. So it's baffling why they think we should care.
Yes. The historicity of the OT is to be questioned until one finds a way to twist it to fit their narrative.
 
Seriously, this is without a doubt the sickest and most perverse twisting of Scripture imaginable. If this is the crud SC is going to promote, we'd do well to regard him as we do the nudist who comes to tout her narrative.
 
I had already made my mind up that if Smellin was only going to do the occasional hit-n-run post then I ain’t giving it the time of day.
 
Smilin is a Christian who has turned into a reprobate with a hardened heart against God, but he still has the right to post here if he’s following the forum rules. I swear some people on here ought to just purchase their own forum and post sanctimonious drivel back and forth to himself.
 
Smilin is a Christian who has turned into a reprobate with a hardened heart against God, but he still has the right to post here if he’s following the forum rules. I swear some people on here ought to just purchase their own forum and post sanctimonious drivel back and forth to himself.

No need to make things personal.

And just for some historical FFF perspective, the stuff Smellin posted would have been restricted to the “unbelievers forum” in the past iterations of the FFF.
 
No need to make things personal.
I agree, but do me a favor and publicly send those sentiments out to others on here when you observe it, not just when I do it.
And just for some historical FFF perspective, the stuff Smellin posted would have been restricted to the “unbelievers forum” in the past iterations of the FFF.
Key words: past iterations.
 
I agree, but do me a favor and publicly send those sentiments out to others on here when you observe it, not just when I do it.
If I thought you were genuinely suggesting that I might consider it.
Key words: past iterations.

Key fact, Smellin is still posting and hasn’t been moderated, censored, or banished from the island.
 
One would think that a marriage of that magnitude would have had some publicity. King’s son marries national hero. If nothing else the Israel Inquirer would have breathless reports on the honeymoon and a critique of the wedding party’s fashion choices.
 
And just for some historical FFF perspective, the stuff Smellin posted would have been restricted to the “unbelievers forum” in the past iterations of the FFF.

That's true: past iterations of the FFF had an unbelievers forum. If we did now, I'd relegate the apostate theolgoy to it. As it is, I'm leaving it here in the "fighting" forum, which of the channels we do have is the most appropriate one, and making sure the rules are followed.

I'm not exactly sympathetic to this viewpoint, but I'm not going to exploit my elevated privileges to mess with the thread just because I disagree.
 
One would think that a marriage of that magnitude would have had some publicity. King’s son marries national hero. If nothing else the Israel Inquirer would have breathless reports on the honeymoon and a critique of the wedding party’s fashion choices.

One would think that since Leviticus explicitly outlaws men having relations with men as they do with women, 1 Samuel wouldn't have to beat around the bush so much that no one spotted it until 30 seconds ago.
 
Yep. Based on (biblical) context and Rabbinical hermeneutic of Talmud, David and Jonathan were not only lovers, but married.

String of X posts by a Rabbi into a single thread:

So let's get the obvious stuff out of the way. David was bisexual, and he and Jonathan were lovers. The evidence in the text of this is strong. And while some may deny it, those are the same men who scream that Song of Songs is about Israel and God. So let's go through this. We read in 1st Samuel 18 that Jonathan's "nefesh" his soul, became "nik'sh'ra" (bound up or binded) with the "nefesh" of David. Soul on soul love. Deep love. This is not friendship. This is soulmates. Moreover, from a Hebrew point of view, the word "nik'sh'ra" is.a word that is parced in the perfect third feminine singular. There is a "feminine" aspect to Jonathan, a slim young man, in contrast to David's masculinity. There is an attraction of souls that occurs, and (there is a scribal error here, see below) but one loved the other as himself. For those pointing back to the Levitical idea of a neighbor...NO. The wording is totally different there. There is no "nefesh" mentioned in the loving on one's countryman/fellow/neighbor. This is a different love. The author was purposeful here.

And, it is right here, friends, in verses 1 Samuel 18: 2, 3, and 4 that a marriage takes place. In the Ancient Near East, the three elements that made a marriage were 1) A parental exchange, i.e. moving from one house to another, 2) a vow or covenant, and 3) a gift. We see each of these in the following verses. Before we do so, keep in mind that these elements eventually evolved into a parent's "blessing" after it was transactional, the vows given at a wedding ceremony, and a ring (i.e. the gift exchange). But these were not the traditions of the time, so we have to be careful not to look for 21st century marriage clues in a biblical text. All three are there, and here we go. 1Sam 18:2 - Saul, the father of Jonathan, takes David into his family, (into his service is not in the text but implied)and David no longer returns to his father's house because, why would he? He is marrying Saul's son! Once a marriage occurs, one of the people married leaves their father's house and goes to another house.

It is at this point, once the parental exchange is done, that the vow comes in: Jonathan and David, standing together, made a "brit" a covenant with one another. Again the words "nefesh" are used. The word "brit" is not a friendly "pact" as the translator lead you to seethe words are well known in Jewish wedding ceremonies that a "brit" is an everlasting covenant between two people, and that exactly what David and Jonathan did with one another. Their souls make a pact together to be together, it is quite beautiful!

And finally, we come to the gift. In verse 4, Jonathan takes off his cloak and tunic, and gives them to David, with his sword, his bow, his belt. While commentators struggle to understand this gesture, those who understand Near Eastern wedding rituals see it clearly. It is the gift from one person to another to solidify the third step of a wedding ritual of the time.

Now, how about some supplementary evidence to help? Remember in 1Sam 18:17, Saul attempts to have David married off to his daughter, Merab. You know, a woman. David's answer to him, when seen through the lens we have built with the wedding ritual that just occurred is actually quite funny. A young man who will be come king says to Saul (see text below) but seriously dude, "I'm already your son-in-law." And then he runs out the clockon Merab so she marries someone else. Pretty sneaky and genius.

Verse 20 tells us that another of Saul's daughters, Michal, wants to marry David too, and Saul thinks, "Ok let's try this woman." David finally catches on that this is the way to the throne, and marries her. Keep in mind, friends, that a King can have many wives, so this was not a big deal that he was secretly married to Jonathan, and publicly married to Michal. We can see Saul had some inkling of the marriage of David and Jonathan by 1Sam 20. And the bond between Jonathan and David is more than just friendship, it is soulmates, put together by love and ancient ritual:And it is in verse 32-33, that the mystery of why Saul wishes to murder David is now (perhaps) clear. David has done no wrong, but perhaps Saul has figured out that he and Jonathan have been married. Later in 1Sam 20:42, we see loving language, kissing and crying, and Jonathan again reiterating that they have sworn to each other in the name of God!

Now, are there plenty of people who will disagree with this interpretation? Those who will say they were just "close friends," that the ritual exchanges and vows meant something else, that their souls were bound together in friendship? That Saul's jealousy was the cause? Of course! And that is perfectly fine. But one cannot ignore the cultural repertoire of an ancient near eastern wedding ritual, the elements of them coming together, and the actions of the two, the love language, and the events that come after without saying..."hmmm".
THE END.

Source:

.
David and Jonathan were Jews and it's true that they had to have known about the Levitical punishment for same sex, sex. They also had to have known about the story of Sodom. While I do feel that it is probable that they loved one another more than most would love another man, I find it highly unlikely and in fact, I don't believe that in that era, they would have openly "married" one another. That's just wishful thinking on the part of this rabbi - I don't know if he's the same one that came up with 7 or 8 sexual orientations but nevertheless, I don't put any stock in this marriage idea.
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