The phony evangelism of Calvinism

[bgwilkinson]

Apostle Paul comes to mind, mass murderer of Christians.

 

[prophet]

Pray for labourers, not crops, the harvest is ripe.

 

[bruinboy]

There's no logical flaw in the second statement. There's an unstated premise: Salvation is predetermined, grace is irresistible, God commands us to evangelize, and God uses evangelism as the means by which his elect are brought to him.

Bless your heart. 


Scott, salvation is not at all pre-determined. Salvation is for anyone who will come to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith in His blood.

Also, Grace is not irresistible. It can be resisted. Just as a Christian, after he has already been saved, can resist the Holy Ghost in his life.

 

[Ransom]

Scott, salvation is not at all pre-determined. Salvation is for anyone who will come to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith in His blood.

Also, Grace is not irresistible. It can be resisted. Just as a Christian, after he has already been saved, can resist the Holy Ghost in his life.

You seem a bit thick, so just by way of reminder, I gave up thinking "Is not!" and "is too!" were valid forms of argumentation before I reached puberty. Try it sometime.

 

[PFFlyer]

And how does God guarantee that an individual possessing a free will, will fall into his trap?

Well, I wouldn't characterize it as "his trap", but fair enough for our discussion.  My answer is that He can't.  There is no guarantee that our hypothetical man being sought by God will respond to His overtures.

The problem with the unregenerate isn't that they are ignorant of God, but that they are enemies of God (Rom. 8:7).

I wholeheartedly agree.  Romans 1 makes that clear, as does your reference.  My point, poorly made as it might have been, is that my prayer would be that the LORD might bring the rebel to the end of himself, to bring him to the place where he recognizes the futility of self-rule towards his own good end, and the worthiness of the true King to exercise that rule instead.

 

[Ransom]

Well, I wouldn't characterize it as "his trap", but fair enough for our discussion.

I certainly can characterize your position that way. Essentially you are saying that God is powerless to change a person's mind, but he can kettle the person into a position where he is forced to accept him.

You know, because God is a gentleman who would never interfere, and stuff.

I wholeheartedly agree.  Romans 1 makes that clear, as does your reference.  My point, poorly made as it might have been, is that my prayer would be that the LORD might bring the rebel to the end of himself, to bring him to the place where he recognizes the futility of self-rule towards his own good end, and the worthiness of the true King to exercise that rule instead.

And by his own free-will, the slave chooses to be bought by a different master! What a wonderful world.

 

[christundivided]

I certainly can characterize your position that way. Essentially you are saying that God is powerless to change a person's mind, but he can kettle the person into a position where he is forced to accept him.

You know, because God is a gentleman who would never interfere, and stuff.

Yeah.... God's always liked it when other people interfered with His will. I'm pretty sure God gets angry about such things. Yet, that is impossible....Man can't possible exercise freewill to oppose God. Even when man isn't doing what God wills.... in some weird, freakish way....... man is really doing God's will.....

Welcome to the "Calvin" freak show.

And by his own free-will, the slave chooses to be bought by a different master! What a wonderful world.

No. The slaves calls on the Master to free him from his existing master. Now, God's not a man, that He would deny such a heartfelt call.

 

[PFFlyer]

I certainly can characterize your position that way.

Yep, I believe I admitted that was fair.

Essentially you are saying that God is powerless to change a person's mind, but he can kettle the person into a position where he is forced to accept him.

Correct on the first point, incorrect on the second.  I have stated repeatedly that there are no guarantees.  Our man is "forced" to accept nothing.  His condition is exposed, the remedy made known.  I said nothing beyond that.

And by his own free-will, the slave chooses to be bought by a different master! What a wonderful world.

I cried out for mercy, He gave it.  "Wonderful" doesn't even begin to cover it.

 

[subllibrm]

How does the concept of adoption play into all of this? Is not the decision to adopt normally made by the parents rather than by the child?

Or the grafting in of branches? Does the branch ever choose the vine that it wishes to be grafted into?

 

[christundivided]

How does the concept of adoption play into all of this? Is not the decision to adopt normally made by the parents rather than by the child?

Or the grafting in of branches? Does the branch ever choose the vine that it wishes to be grafted into?

1. Does a potential parent make an arbitrary choice between two identical children or does the parent consider the desire of the child?

2. The "branch/vine" is a rather unique illustration. It speaks of those in Christ. It has no application apart from this. The grafting of the wild olive branch is a hypothetical illustration given by Paul to illustrate that God desires all the praise for His divine action in giving Christ for all of humanity.

 

[Ransom]

How does the concept of adoption play into all of this? Is not the decision to adopt normally made by the parents rather than by the child?

Or the grafting in of branches? Does the branch ever choose the vine that it wishes to be grafted into?

Now now, there you go arguing that metaphors and other figures of speech mean something!

 

[christundivided]

How does the concept of adoption play into all of this? Is not the decision to adopt normally made by the parents rather than by the child?

Or the grafting in of branches? Does the branch ever choose the vine that it wishes to be grafted into?

Now now, there you go arguing that metaphors and other figures of speech mean something!

They work fine when you apply them properly. The way both of you seek to apply the"metaphor".... forms a God that foreordained an arbitrary choice in adopting children that are not His own.

You've gotten rather petty with the one liners. You only pick on people smaller than you anymore. Easy targets.... I thought better of you.

 

[BandGuy]

CU,

The fact that you don't know or understand God's reasoning doesn't make His sovereign choice arbitrary.

 

[christundivided]

CU,

The fact that you don't know or understand God's reasoning doesn't make His sovereign choice arbitrary.

If its not arbitrary in your system.... then explain how it isn't? Just saying its "God's good pleasure" is rather silly explanation.

 

[BandGuy]

How is God's good pleasure silly and since when does God or anyone else owe you an explanation for His sovereign choice and what He has chosen not to reveal to you? I don't have to explain that which God has not chosen to reveal to me and neither does that make His sovereign choice arbitrary unless you believe you know better than God Himself.

 

[christundivided]

How is God's good pleasure silly and since when does God or anyone else owe you an explanation for His sovereign choice and what He has chosen not to reveal to you? I don't have to explain that which God has not chosen to reveal to me and neither does that make His sovereign choice arbitrary unless you believe you know better than God Himself.

Humm.... I didn't say God's good pleasure was silly. I asked about your system of beliefs. These are not one in the same.

Your system produces a arbitrary choice based solely on the explanation of "God's good pleasure".

Sorry... I call that a rather lame explanation. You call it "sovereignty". I call it nothing more than a poor explanation from a deficient systematic theology.

 

[BandGuy]

You can call it whatever you wish.  That doesn't make it true.  I could call Obama a conservative all day.  It won't be any more true at 7 pm tonight as it would be right now.  You're the one creating the silly and unfounded charge that God's sovereign choice is arbitrary.  It's now up to you to prove it.  Good luck.  You're going to need it.

 

[christundivided]

You can call it whatever you wish.  That doesn't make it true.  I could call Obama a conservative all day.  It won't be any more true at 7 pm tonight as it would be right now.  You're the one creating the silly and unfounded charge that God's sovereign choice is arbitrary.  It's now up to you to prove it.  Good luck.  You're going to need it.

You know what I said is true. It has nothing to do with "Obama".

You believe you're right in your systematic beliefs. You believe so much in them..... that you refuse to look at them objectively. Your system produces an arbitrary choice that is explained solely based on "the good pleasure of His will"..

I could say a turd exists because of "the good pleasure of His will".... that doesn't tell me a thing about what causes a turd.

 

[BandGuy]

Still have no evidence of your silly claims, so I have nothing more to add to your dishonest and irrelevant rant. Enjoy talking to yourself until you decide to actually interact with the topic honestly and intelligently. My time is too valuable to continue with a stupid, dishonest conversation.

 

[christundivided]

Still have no evidence of your silly claims, so I have nothing more to add to your dishonest and irrelevant rant. Enjoy talking to yourself until you decide to actually interact with the topic honestly and intelligently. My time is too valuable to continue with a stupid, dishonest conversation.

You... SIR... have the burden of proving its the "good pleasure of His will". You just can't say its is.... and then walk away from the conversation.