The "stumbling block" of Calvinism

[praise_yeshua]

This assumes that God's will is "free".

I didn't think I was dealing with atheist and agnostics...

Yup. That's it. <rolls eyes>

Easily enough to prove. Provide a reputable source that teachings God doesn't have "freewill". Now, if you're going to argue about God being constrained by His own Divine nature.... than that's another argument. God's freewill is expressed in His Divine Nature.

"Now I can say things that make no sense at all."

Just another "one liner"

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have yet to me a Calvinist that would say, my child has not been chosen, he was chosen for destruction.  Funny how that works.

That's a stupid argument, IMO.  I have yet to meet anyone, Calvinist or otherwise, who knows whether his children are chosen the same way they know they, themselves are chosen.  The Bible says the Spirit testifies with MY spirit, not the Spirit testifies about my children's spirits. 

Because I love my children and because I place my faith in God's love for them, too, I believe my children are chosen.  But I also know that's up to God, and I am in no position to argue with God.

How can you love a God that has potentially..... left your children.... without hope?

As parents....The very BEST we can hope for..... Is that our children make their own choices? YET, you believe they have no such thing......

 

[Recovering IFB]

Can you explain to me HOW they know? Simple question.

A Calvinist believes a person can ask God millions of time to save him/her and it will not come unless God has chosen them from Eternity past.

It's not asking God a million times, Jesus said all who come to him he would not cast out and all thy come to him are drawn by the Father, who replaces a heart of stone with one of flesh.
How do I know im saved? I heard the Gospel after hearing it many times in my life but one day, I heard it, everything became crystal clear. I once didn't care for God and now I do, I didn't do this on my own.

So... is it fair to say you believe that everyone that asks God to save them..... gets saved?... THUS... you have the proof of salvation in Calvinism?

Does Calvinism teach this?

Asking Jesus to save us dissent equate to salvation, you'll have to study Irresistible Grace to get the answer you're looking for

 

[praise_yeshua]

Can you explain to me HOW they know? Simple question.

A Calvinist believes a person can ask God millions of time to save him/her and it will not come unless God has chosen them from Eternity past.

It's not asking God a million times, Jesus said all who come to him he would not cast out and all thy come to him are drawn by the Father, who replaces a heart of stone with one of flesh.
How do I know im saved? I heard the Gospel after hearing it many times in my life but one day, I heard it, everything became crystal clear. I once didn't care for God and now I do, I didn't do this on my own.

So... is it fair to say you believe that everyone that asks God to save them..... gets saved?... THUS... you have the proof of salvation in Calvinism?

Does Calvinism teach this?

Asking Jesus to save us dissent equate to salvation, you'll have to study Irresistible Grace to get the answer you're looking for

I don't understand the "dissent equate" part of your response. For your information.... I've been studying such things for almost 30 years now. Perhaps you would like to point out something in the doctrine that proves what you're trying to say.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Doesn't equate* sorry, fat fingers

 

[Ransom]

How can you love a God that has potentially..... left your children.... without hope?

Won't somebody think of the children? Oh boo hoo hoo hoo!

 

[Bruh]

I have yet to me a Calvinist that would say, my child has not been chosen, he was chosen for destruction.  Funny how that works.

That's a stupid argument, IMO.  I have yet to meet anyone, Calvinist or otherwise, who knows whether his children are chosen the same way they know they, themselves are chosen.  The Bible says the Spirit testifies with MY spirit, not the Spirit testifies about my children's spirits. 

Because I love my children and because I place my faith in God's love for them, too, I believe my children are chosen.  But I also know that's up to God, and I am in no position to argue with God.

Since its up to God and let's say one of your children are not chosen by Him. Then praise God, right? Because then your child was created for destruction  correct?

 

[Recovering IFB]

God chooses us, we don't choose him, you know, there are none righteous, no one seeks after God? Do you see that? Nobody seeks him, he chooses us,....
He chose Israel, Deut 7:7; Jesus chose the disciples, John 15:16. And he chooses us, not because of anything we did, we're not special but because of his mercy and grace
Romans 8:29-30
Eph 1:11 2:10

 

[praise_yeshua]

How can you love a God that has potentially..... left your children.... without hope?

Won't somebody think of the children? Oh boo hoo hoo hoo!

Even a grown up is someone's child Ransom. My desire for my future 40 year old children is that they make their own choices. I pray and desire they make good ones.... but I can't ask anything greater than they act according to their own will. I can't make it for them.... and I'm grateful to God that he's made it that way for a reason.

 

[Bruh]

God chooses us, we don't choose him, you know, there are none righteous, no one seeks after God? Do you see that? Nobody seeks him, he chooses us,....
He chose Israel, Deut 7:7; Jesus chose the disciples, John 15:16. And he chooses us, not because of anything we did, we're not special but because of his mercy and grace
Romans 8:29-30
Eph 1:11 2:10

But Calvinist don't believe he choose all only some.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God chooses us, we don't choose him, you know, there are none righteous, no one seeks after God? Do you see that? Nobody seeks him, he chooses us,....
He chose Israel, Deut 7:7; Jesus chose the disciples, John 15:16. And he chooses us, not because of anything we did, we're not special but because of his mercy and grace
Romans 8:29-30
Eph 1:11 2:10

You need to reconcile what you believe about these verses with...

Act_17:27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Heb_11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Ransom]

Even a grown up is someone's child Ransom. My desire for my future 40 year old children is that they make their own choices. I pray and desire they make good ones.... but I can't ask anything greater than they act according to their own will. I can't make it for them.... and I'm grateful to God that he's made it that way for a reason.

But--but--innocent little babies! Going to hell! Boohoohoohoohoo!!!11!!one!! And puppies too!1!!!!!@@1!! Boohoohoohoohoo!!!!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Even a grown up is someone's child Ransom. My desire for my future 40 year old children is that they make their own choices. I pray and desire they make good ones.... but I can't ask anything greater than they act according to their own will. I can't make it for them.... and I'm grateful to God that he's made it that way for a reason.

But--but--innocent little babies! Going to hell! Boohoohoohoohoo!!!11!!one!! And puppies too!1!!!!!@@1!! Boohoohoohoohoo!!!!!

You're falling apart....... You're better than this.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I have yet to me a Calvinist that would say, my child has not been chosen, he was chosen for destruction.  Funny how that works.

That's a stupid argument, IMO.  I have yet to meet anyone, Calvinist or otherwise, who knows whether his children are chosen the same way they know they, themselves are chosen.  The Bible says the Spirit testifies with MY spirit, not the Spirit testifies about my children's spirits. 

Because I love my children and because I place my faith in God's love for them, too, I believe my children are chosen.  But I also know that's up to God, and I am in no position to argue with God.

How can you love a God that has potentially..... left your children.... without hope?

As parents....The very BEST we can hope for..... Is that our children make their own choices? YET, you believe they have no such thing......

Wrong on both counts. 

1. Being left without hope implies they wish they could be saved, but cannot.  This is an impossible scenario, since nobody desires Jesus until they are regenerated. 

2. No, the very BEST I can hope for is that God chose my children, even in spite of their choices. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have yet to me a Calvinist that would say, my child has not been chosen, he was chosen for destruction.  Funny how that works.

That's a stupid argument, IMO.  I have yet to meet anyone, Calvinist or otherwise, who knows whether his children are chosen the same way they know they, themselves are chosen.  The Bible says the Spirit testifies with MY spirit, not the Spirit testifies about my children's spirits. 

Because I love my children and because I place my faith in God's love for them, too, I believe my children are chosen.  But I also know that's up to God, and I am in no position to argue with God.

How can you love a God that has potentially..... left your children.... without hope?

As parents....The very BEST we can hope for..... Is that our children make their own choices? YET, you believe they have no such thing......

Wrong on both counts. 

1. Being left without hope implies they wish they could be saved, but cannot.  This is an impossible scenario, since nobody desires Jesus until they are regenerated. 

2. No, the very BEST I can hope for is that God chose my children, even in spite of their choices.

This is a PERFECT...... Calvinist answer. Perfect. In fact, I really appreciate your honesty. Its rare to get someone to really admit what Calvinism "brings to the table".

May I ask, have you explained this to your children? That there is a possibility that God hasn't "chosen" them?

In all honesty.... If I really believed this.... I don't think I'd tell my children about it.... and this goes to my point #3. Calvinism has replaced the "hope of the Cross". The "power" of the Gospel.

 

[Recovering IFB]

God chooses us, we don't choose him, you know, there are none righteous, no one seeks after God? Do you see that? Nobody seeks him, he chooses us,....
He chose Israel, Deut 7:7; Jesus chose the disciples, John 15:16. And he chooses us, not because of anything we did, we're not special but because of his mercy and grace
Romans 8:29-30
Eph 1:11 2:10

You need to reconcile what you believe about these verses with...

Act_17:27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Heb_11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Read it all acts 17:24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

You see, it is God that initiates the seeking, we don't go at it on our own
And in Hebrews, he was writing to believers, not unsaved people....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

May I ask, have you explained this to your children? That there is a possibility that God hasn't "chosen" them?

Yes, actually, I have.  Although I didn't put it quite that way, I'm sure they understand that it means some people are not chosen. 

Why would it bother any children?  If they're reprobates, then they wouldn't care less if they're not chosen.  If they're saved, then they are happy that they are chosen.  If they don't know, but worry about it, then they're chosen, and need to have it explained to them why that's true (and I have done so, and they haven't worried about it since they were little). 

 

[praise_yeshua]

You see, it is God that initiates the seeking, we don't go at it on our own
And in Hebrews, he was writing to believers, not unsaved people....

You didn't read very closely did you?

Just when did God do all these things mentioned in the verses? Yes. God originally did the seeking. God even gave His Son of His own free will. He expects people to respond to what He DID....

Geesh...

Read it AGAIN...

Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

 

[Recovering IFB]

God initiated that, not us

 

[praise_yeshua]

May I ask, have you explained this to your children? That there is a possibility that God hasn't "chosen" them?

Yes, actually, I have.  Although I didn't put it quite that way, I'm sure they understand that it means some people are not chosen. 

Why would it bother any children?  If they're reprobates, then they wouldn't care less if they're not chosen.  If they're saved, then they are happy that they are chosen.  If they don't know, but worry about it, then they're chosen, and need to have it explained to them why that's true (and I have done so, and they haven't worried about it since they were little).

So.... you really don't see the difference? In your system, they potentially have no hope. In another system, its up to them. They can willing choose to accept the results of the Cross of Christ, or they can choose to reject it. Its up them.

You act as if its no BIG deal? Do you know what is at stake?