The "stumbling block" of Calvinism

[praise_yeshua]

God initiated that, not us

Okay... when does it say he initiated it?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

May I ask, have you explained this to your children? That there is a possibility that God hasn't "chosen" them?

Yes, actually, I have.  Although I didn't put it quite that way, I'm sure they understand that it means some people are not chosen. 

Why would it bother any children?  If they're reprobates, then they wouldn't care less if they're not chosen.  If they're saved, then they are happy that they are chosen.  If they don't know, but worry about it, then they're chosen, and need to have it explained to them why that's true (and I have done so, and they haven't worried about it since they were little).

So.... you really don't see the difference? In your system, they potentially have no hope. In another system, its up to them. They can willing choose to accept the results of the Cross of Christ, or they can choose to reject it. Its up them.

You act as if its no BIG deal? Do you know what is at stake?

Your reasoning reminds me of the reasoning of the preterists.  They fear that people will doubt God because they don't see any prophecy being fulfilled, so they make up ways to explain why all prophecy has already been fulfilled.  What amazes me is that they're pretty open about their motivation. 

You want a system where the hinge and turning point of salvation is a person's free will decision.  Why?  Because it offends you to think that God might actually create some people for destruction.  So, to support your emotional response, you invent the notion that these people are deprived a sense of hope -- a sense of hope that no vessel prepared for destruction will ever desire or experience.  And then you use your self-imposed "rule of hope" to argue that this is the way salvation works.  Or, better, you argue that this is the way salvation SHOULD work -- because this is what makes sense to your emotional reaction to predestination and God's sovereign choice. 

That's no way to interpret what the Bible says.  God is God, and He will do whatever He will according to His good pleasure.  You are in no position to rewrite God's words to make them more palatable to your sensibilities. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

Your reasoning reminds me of the reasoning of the preterists.  They fear that people will doubt God because they don't see any prophecy being fulfilled, so they make up ways to explain why all prophecy has already been fulfilled.  What amazes me is that they're pretty open about their motivation.

Not my motive.

You want a system where the hinge and turning point of salvation is a person's free will decision.  Why?  Because it offends you to think that God might actually create some people for destruction.

Yes. This offends me. Not to mention the fact that the Scriptures do not teach this.

So, to support your emotional response,

Yes. Its emotional and its also logical. One does not preclude the other.

you invent the notion that these people are deprived a sense of hope

I didn't invent anything. The Scriptures declare.

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

-- a sense of hope that no vessel prepared for destruction will ever desire or experience.

They WILL experience the resulting judgement. You act as if these supposed "damned" will not experience anything beyond their own desire. You can't tell me that even the "damned" desire the judgement of God!!!!

And then you use your self-imposed "rule of hope" to argue that this is the way salvation works.  Or, better, you argue that this is the way salvation SHOULD work -- because this is what makes sense to your emotional reaction to predestination and God's sovereign choice. 

That's not what the Scriptures teach. Again. I'm not assuming anything. What I believe it based on the Scriptures. I am more than willing to prove it.

That's no way to interpret what the Bible says.  God is God, and He will do whatever He will according to His good pleasure.  You are in no position to rewrite God's words to make them more palatable to your sensibilities.

Neither are you. This works both ways. Calvinism has rewritten to truth of the Gospel.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]Yes. Its emotional and its also logical. One does not preclude the other. [/quote]

Logical....

Okay. There's that word. So, I'm genuinely curious (because I haven't found someone who can provide a halfway coherent answer yet).

Can you name any choice you have made, any choice, that wasn't decided by your past history, genetic makeup, time in history, available resources, current circumstances, reasoning ability, etc?

 

[Mathew Ward]

Philippians 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]Yes. Its emotional and its also logical. One does not preclude the other.

Logical....

Okay. There's that word. So, I'm genuinely curious (because I haven't found someone who can provide a halfway coherent answer yet).

Can you name any choice you have made, any choice, that wasn't decided by your past history, genetic makeup, time in history, available resources, current circumstances, reasoning ability, etc?
[/quote]

Exactly.  Or in short, all choices are determined by inclination.  It takes God to change our inclination. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

Philippians 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

You've jumped a long way into the discussion. How about we start a little earlier.... Do you believe this work began at the moment of salvation or in some supposed moment in Eternity past in predestination?

 

[praise_yeshua]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]Yes. Its emotional and its also logical. One does not preclude the other.

Logical....

Okay. There's that word. So, I'm genuinely curious (because I haven't found someone who can provide a halfway coherent answer yet).

Can you name any choice you have made, any choice, that wasn't decided by your past history, genetic makeup, time in history, available resources, current circumstances, reasoning ability, etc?
[/quote]

Yes. I've chosen to ignore you many times. I'm sure you question my logic in the matter!!!!

Seriously.... I've chosen to act against my own self interest and regardless of rational consequence. I've chosen to stand in opposition to people I love and cherish.

Now... explain just how this somehow fits into your opposition?

 

[rsc2a]

Philippians 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

You've jumped a long way into the discussion. How about we start a little earlier.... Do you believe this work began at the moment of salvation or in some supposed moment in Eternity past in predestination?

The moment of salvation (as much as there is a "moment") is "supposed" moment in Eternity past. That's explicitly stated in the text.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Philippians 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

You've jumped a long way into the discussion. How about we start a little earlier.... Do you believe this work began at the moment of salvation or in some supposed moment in Eternity past in predestination?

The moment of salvation (as much as there is a "moment") is "supposed" moment in Eternity past. That's explicitly stated in the text.

Honesty demands you share what text you're referencing!!!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]Yes. Its emotional and its also logical. One does not preclude the other.

Logical....

Okay. There's that word. So, I'm genuinely curious (because I haven't found someone who can provide a halfway coherent answer yet).

Can you name any choice you have made, any choice, that wasn't decided by your past history, genetic makeup, time in history, available resources, current circumstances, reasoning ability, etc?

Exactly.  Or in short, all choices are determined by inclination.  It takes God to change our inclination.
[/quote]

Are your children inclined to pedophilia? If not, then why not?

 

[rsc2a]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

 

[praise_yeshua]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

Did you notice the "us in Him" part? Present your explanation. I have explained before that this is a "corporate" choice. You may want to study corporate election.

 

[rsc2a]

Also:

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Revelation 13:7-8

 

[praise_yeshua]

Also:

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Revelation 13:7-8

You're being purposely selective in your choice of translation. The passage details that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. It's rather interesting how some translations shift a few words around for their own devilish purposes.

 

[rsc2a]

Also:

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Revelation 13:7-8

You're being purposely selective in your choice of translation. The passage details that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. It's rather interesting how some translations shift a few words around for their own devilish purposes.

I'm using the same translation I use for almost all of my studies. I'm also not making a false division between the individual and the church corporate...

 

[FSSL]

First, the argument really isn't about the 5 points. A Calvinist just loves to confine the discussion to his own outline....

... actually... the "points" were counterpoints to the Arminian points.

 

[praise_yeshua]

First, the argument really isn't about the 5 points. A Calvinist just loves to confine the discussion to his own outline....

... actually... the "points" were counterpoints to the Arminian points.

Calvinist have owned them for years. It's like blaming the term "baptist" on Protestants. No matter where it started.... it became a willing choice of those so named.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Also:

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Revelation 13:7-8

You're being purposely selective in your choice of translation. The passage details that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. It's rather interesting how some translations shift a few words around for their own devilish purposes.

I'm using the same translation I use for almost all of my studies. I'm also not making a false division between the individual and the church corporate...

You should know your translation better. I bet you don't even know why your translation actually CHANGES the Greek construct of the passage.

Also, I asked you to explain your belief. Christ was chosen in Eternity past to be the model for those created in the image of God. It had nothing to do with you... or any Calvinist. It was ALL about CHRIST. Which is the glorious truth of corporate Election and not this silly idea of individual election. A Calvinst had always rather talk about himself.... instead of Christ.

 

[prophet]

If it wasn't a stumbling block, it would just be called "Christianity", with no need to pay homage to some political leader/religious figure.