This isn't a riot, it's a shopping spree.

[Smellin Coffee]

killings of unarmed folks, primarily black, but mostly poor.

You would think that the if the number one killer of black males is other black males, someone would address the issue.... But then again...

Certainly an issue to be addressed. No argument from me about that. However, black-on-black murder is different than US Gub,mint (via criminal justice system, local police and the militarization thereof)-on-black murders.

Fix the root issues causing the crime and the crime rate will drop. If you were truly concerned about black-on-black murders, you would see the cooker pressure they experience when there are blue lights behind them, knowing they are already profiled to be a probable criminal or armed, simply because of their skin color.

Where is the Republican rage against the gub'mint when using illegal and sometimes lethal force against unarmed individuals and armed individuals in open-carry states? Where is the rage when these police facilities are literally militarizing themselves with the gub'mint funding they receive for reaching their arrest quotas in the "War on Drugs", a quota based on arrests and not convictions? Where are the pro-life Republicans when people are getting murdered by police?

Republicans are for Big Government but only if they are in control. And with the literal police forces becoming militarized, Republicans are all for it, not realizing that within the next century, someone can come in and take control of the system and we have a potential "Hitler" resurrection, using local police as military support. The Nazi structure is being built in the US without the dictator. It's coming. Won't be in my generation and probably not my kids' generation, but it will happen. The New Jim Crow we are now seeing is just the beginning.

 

[subllibrm]

Or perhaps Blacks are more conservative than you give them credit for..

And you base this on what?

Walter William, Alan Keyes and other conservative blacks are called Uncle Toms by the majority of some blacks.

Fixed it for you.

 

[subllibrm]

Or perhaps Blacks are more conservative than you give them credit for..

And you base this on what?

Walter William, Alan Keyes and other conservative blacks are called Uncle Toms by the majority of blacks.

My statement was tongue-in-cheek. My point is conservatives are allegedly opposed to gub'mint interference ("Don't take away our guns!"), but when the blacks contest gub'mint interference because they are being killed upon suspicion or non-compliance due to lack of reason of suspicion, conservatives tell them "Just do what the cop says, even though he has no legal right to stop and search you." In this case, it is the conservatives that are for "Big, Bad Gub'mint authority" and blacks opposed that kind of interference.

There is a certain amount of cognitive dissonance involved on both sides.

 

[subllibrm]

White guy with what appeared (at the time) to be a semi-automatic weapon, threatened to kill police and eventually was taken peacefully. No shots fired.

Yet with Olango, he is mentally ill a fact known by the responding officers, makes no threat (at least as far as I have read), takes a shooting posture though unarmed and gets killed by firing squad on the spot.

Why wasn't more care taken with him?

Apples and tire irons.

 

[subllibrm]

And yet idiots like Smellin and the news media claim these are peaceful protests.  Unbelievable.

That is the thing about the media .... They say whatever they want and people believe them.

Just attend a Black Lives Matter protest and see how long you will stay. They are angry and dangerous.

Since FOX News is also media I must assume this statement applies to their audience as well.

 

[subllibrm]

I agree, but giving police carte blanche to kill with immunity, specifically mentally ill and unarmed folks, doesn't help the process of reconciliation. If nothing else, criminal justice reform can help take the edge off some of the hostility which will benefit ALL of us, not just the black community.

Conflation 101. Right from the text book.

 

[subllibrm]

It isn't so much the liberal policies that have brought this on, but moreso the criminal justice system ever since Reagan's "War on Drug" campaign which put $ in the coffers of poor police departments and lined the pockets of private prison institutions ("prisons for profit"). The New Jim Crow.

I will agree with your assessment of the war on drugs. How about you admit that the wars on poverty, illiteracy, hunger and every other government sponsored "social" war has contributed as well to the problem?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

It isn't so much the liberal policies that have brought this on, but moreso the criminal justice system ever since Reagan's "War on Drug" campaign which put $ in the coffers of poor police departments and lined the pockets of private prison institutions ("prisons for profit"). The New Jim Crow.

I will agree with your assessment of the war on drugs. How about you admit that the wars on poverty, illiteracy, hunger and every other government sponsored "social" war has contributed as well to the problem?

I will admit to it. The government being the savior is just as much a problem as the government being the persecutor. Both aspects need serious reform.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I agree, but giving police carte blanche to kill with immunity, specifically mentally ill and unarmed folks, doesn't help the process of reconciliation. If nothing else, criminal justice reform can help take the edge off some of the hostility which will benefit ALL of us, not just the black community.

Conflation 101. Right from the text book.

Somewhat hyperbole on my part. There are major cities where there are heavy restrictions on the police as to when and how to use lethal force. There are situations (like in Tulsa) where a police officer might even be held accountable for his/her actions with arrest. But when officers killing these people with not even a suspension, much less arrest, there are protections for the officer not afforded to the victim: mainly the protection of "feeling threatened" and the ability to respond "in self defense, with lethal means if deemed necessary".

Yeah, I exaggerated but it was to make a point.

 

[subllibrm]

I had the misfortune to be staying on the near north side of Chicago in 1993 when the Bulls won their 3rd title. I remember driving by Cabrini Green fearing for my life. This was the inner city showing their team spirit. I remember several cars tipped over, windows being broken and at least one police car on fire. The Chicago paper, the next day, said several people were killed in the riot / celebration.

I fear we are not far away from mass riots breaking out all over. The liberal social welfare experiments we call inner cities show how destructive those policies have been. We need to rebuild the homes (of all races) in the inner cities and we need to put people to work. Generations of dependence on other to care for your needs does not end well.

That was in celebration. Imagine if your unarmed friend who was doing nothing wrong, gets stopped by the police and ends up dead? What if it were your brother or cousin or dad?
It isn't so much the liberal policies that have brought this on, but moreso the criminal justice system ever since Reagan's "War on Drug" campaign which put $ in the coffers of poor police departments and lined the pockets of private prison institutions ("prisons for profit"). The New Jim Crow.

So you are saying the terrible condition of our inner cities is less about the lack of fathers in the homes, loss of jobs and Liberal social policy and more about drug policy and our war on drugs?

Actually, he is correct on this one. Were it not for the war on drugs there wouldn't be the huge amount of money involved that sucked so many in and resulted in even more absent fathers in prison. We saw the folly of prohibition and stopped it. With drugs we have gone the other way and in the process made it worse.

The only law that can never be repealed is the law of unintended consequences (unless the huge increase in incarcerated black men was the intention).

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I had the misfortune to be staying on the near north side of Chicago in 1993 when the Bulls won their 3rd title. I remember driving by Cabrini Green fearing for my life. This was the inner city showing their team spirit. I remember several cars tipped over, windows being broken and at least one police car on fire. The Chicago paper, the next day, said several people were killed in the riot / celebration.

I fear we are not far away from mass riots breaking out all over. The liberal social welfare experiments we call inner cities show how destructive those policies have been. We need to rebuild the homes (of all races) in the inner cities and we need to put people to work. Generations of dependence on other to care for your needs does not end well.

That was in celebration. Imagine if your unarmed friend who was doing nothing wrong, gets stopped by the police and ends up dead? What if it were your brother or cousin or dad?
It isn't so much the liberal policies that have brought this on, but moreso the criminal justice system ever since Reagan's "War on Drug" campaign which put $ in the coffers of poor police departments and lined the pockets of private prison institutions ("prisons for profit"). The New Jim Crow.

So you are saying the terrible condition of our inner cities is less about the lack of fathers in the homes, loss of jobs and Liberal social policy and more about drug policy and our war on drugs?

Actually, he is correct on this one. Were it not for the war on drugs there wouldn't be the huge amount of money involved that sucked so many in and resulted in even more absent fathers in prison. We saw the folly of prohibition and stopped it. With drugs we have gone the other way and in the process made it worse.

The only law that can never be repealed is the law of unintended consequences (unless the huge increase in incarcerated black men was the intention).

This is correct. Take my friend "Tyrone". At 16, living with his single mom and special needs brother, needed money to help his mom out. No transportation and the majority of "ghetto jobs" (such as CVS, McDonalds, etc.) are taken by girls. Anyway, the only way he saw to make money was to deliver drugs. He didn't sell or use, was just the carrier. He got busted with a small bit. He couldn't make bail (too poor) and then he was introduced into the prison system. He started in the JV home but at 17, was moved to the big house. Though it was his first (and only) offense, Tyrone finally got his day in court. His lawyer was a public defender and told him to plead guilty and he would be out in a year or two, or he could go to a full trial and risk 10 or more years. He took the advise of his attorney.

Tyrone ended up staying 6 years before getting out. At 22, he is on the street, no job, no skill, not even a GED as he had dropped out of school (and unlike some systems, he was unable to obtain it in his area). What does he do? He couldn't get a job because each job application asked if he had been convicted of a felony. His job applications were probably thrown out. He couldn't get married. Due to Bill Clinton's welfare reform policies, he was limited to 5 years on public assistance. He had no mode of transportation. He beat up his mom's abusive boyfriend while protecting her, then ended up in prison yet again, for another 4 years. (Yes, more time for carrying drugs than assault.) Coming out again, he was homeless and jobless.

When we met in the mission, he was able to find his way there by mopping floors in that mission in exchange for a bed and food. Problem is, there are only so many "mission jobs" available and so many stories like Tyrone's where the system knocked him down as a teenager and he was unable to recover. He didn't say if he had kids along the way, but what if he had? How would he have "been responsible" and taken care of them?

So yes, the War on Drugs actually causes fatherless homes, increases poverty, takes away the voting rights of those imprisoned, and actually creates more bodies who need public assistance and welfare programs simply to survive, not to mention the (taxpayer) cost it takes to house a single prisoner.

 

[sword]

I had the misfortune to be staying on the near north side of Chicago in 1993 when the Bulls won their 3rd title. I remember driving by Cabrini Green fearing for my life. This was the inner city showing their team spirit. I remember several cars tipped over, windows being broken and at least one police car on fire. The Chicago paper, the next day, said several people were killed in the riot / celebration.

I fear we are not far away from mass riots breaking out all over. The liberal social welfare experiments we call inner cities show how destructive those policies have been. We need to rebuild the homes (of all races) in the inner cities and we need to put people to work. Generations of dependence on other to care for your needs does not end well.

That was in celebration. Imagine if your unarmed friend who was doing nothing wrong, gets stopped by the police and ends up dead? What if it were your brother or cousin or dad?
It isn't so much the liberal policies that have brought this on, but moreso the criminal justice system ever since Reagan's "War on Drug" campaign which put $ in the coffers of poor police departments and lined the pockets of private prison institutions ("prisons for profit"). The New Jim Crow.

So you are saying the terrible condition of our inner cities is less about the lack of fathers in the homes, loss of jobs and Liberal social policy and more about drug policy and our war on drugs?

Actually, he is correct on this one. Were it not for the war on drugs there wouldn't be the huge amount of money involved that sucked so many in and resulted in even more absent fathers in prison. We saw the folly of prohibition and stopped it. With drugs we have gone the other way and in the process made it worse.

The only law that can never be repealed is the law of unintended consequences (unless the huge increase in incarcerated black men was the intention).

This is correct. Take my friend "Tyrone". At 16, living with his single mom and special needs brother, needed money to help his mom out. No transportation and the majority of "ghetto jobs" (such as CVS, McDonalds, etc.) are taken by girls. Anyway, the only way he saw to make money was to deliver drugs. He didn't sell or use, was just the carrier. He got busted with a small bit. He couldn't make bail (too poor) and then he was introduced into the prison system. He started in the JV home but at 17, was moved to the big house. Though it was his first (and only) offense, Tyrone finally got his day in court. His lawyer was a public defender and told him to plead guilty and he would be out in a year or two, or he could go to a full trial and risk 10 or more years. He took the advise of his attorney.
Tyrone ended up staying 6 years before getting out. At 22, he is on the street, no job, no skill, not even a GED as he had dropped out of school (and unlike some systems, he was unable to obtain it in his area). What does he do? He couldn't get a job because each job application asked if he had been convicted of a felony. His job applications were probably thrown out. He couldn't get married. Due to Bill Clinton's welfare reform policies, he was limited to 5 years on public assistance. He had no mode of transportation. He beat up his mom's abusive boyfriend while protecting her, then ended up in prison yet again, for another 4 years. (Yes, more time for carrying drugs than assault.) Coming out again, he was homeless and jobless.
When we met in the mission, he was able to find his way there by mopping floors in that mission in exchange for a bed and food. Problem is, there are only so many "mission jobs" available and so many stories like Tyrone's where the system knocked him down as a teenager and he was unable to recover. He didn't say if he had kids along the way, but what if he had? How would he have "been responsible" and taken care of them?
So yes, the War on Drugs actually causes fatherless homes, increases poverty, takes away the voting rights of those imprisoned, and actually creates more bodies who need public assistance and welfare programs simply to survive, not to mention the (taxpayer) cost it takes to house a single prisoner.

So like I said the lack of good paying jobs (not min-wage entry level jobs) is part of the solution. I'm for increasing the amounts of drugs considered "intent to supply" but i'm not sure that would have helped here. The violent behavior and gun possession would have still landed him in jail at some point. why didn't he call the police instead of beating the guy up. Domestic abuse is a very serous charge. 

 

[prophet]

I had the misfortune to be staying on the near north side of Chicago in 1993 when the Bulls won their 3rd title. I remember driving by Cabrini Green fearing for my life. This was the inner city showing their team spirit. I remember several cars tipped over, windows being broken and at least one police car on fire. The Chicago paper, the next day, said several people were killed in the riot / celebration.

I fear we are not far away from mass riots breaking out all over. The liberal social welfare experiments we call inner cities show how destructive those policies have been. We need to rebuild the homes (of all races) in the inner cities and we need to put people to work. Generations of dependence on other to care for your needs does not end well.

That was in celebration. Imagine if your unarmed friend who was doing nothing wrong, gets stopped by the police and ends up dead? What if it were your brother or cousin or dad?
It isn't so much the liberal policies that have brought this on, but moreso the criminal justice system ever since Reagan's "War on Drug" campaign which put $ in the coffers of poor police departments and lined the pockets of private prison institutions ("prisons for profit"). The New Jim Crow.

So you are saying the terrible condition of our inner cities is less about the lack of fathers in the homes, loss of jobs and Liberal social policy and more about drug policy and our war on drugs?

Actually, he is correct on this one. Were it not for the war on drugs there wouldn't be the huge amount of money involved that sucked so many in and resulted in even more absent fathers in prison. We saw the folly of prohibition and stopped it. With drugs we have gone the other way and in the process made it worse.

The only law that can never be repealed is the law of unintended consequences (unless the huge increase in incarcerated black men was the intention).

This is correct. Take my friend "Tyrone". At 16, living with his single mom and special needs brother, needed money to help his mom out. No transportation and the majority of "ghetto jobs" (such as CVS, McDonalds, etc.) are taken by girls. Anyway, the only way he saw to make money was to deliver drugs. He didn't sell or use, was just the carrier. He got busted with a small bit. He couldn't make bail (too poor) and then he was introduced into the prison system. He started in the JV home but at 17, was moved to the big house. Though it was his first (and only) offense, Tyrone finally got his day in court. His lawyer was a public defender and told him to plead guilty and he would be out in a year or two, or he could go to a full trial and risk 10 or more years. He took the advise of his attorney.

Tyrone ended up staying 6 years before getting out. At 22, he is on the street, no job, no skill, not even a GED as he had dropped out of school (and unlike some systems, he was unable to obtain it in his area). What does he do? He couldn't get a job because each job application asked if he had been convicted of a felony. His job applications were probably thrown out. He couldn't get married. Due to Bill Clinton's welfare reform policies, he was limited to 5 years on public assistance. He had no mode of transportation. He beat up his mom's abusive boyfriend while protecting her, then ended up in prison yet again, for another 4 years. (Yes, more time for carrying drugs than assault.) Coming out again, he was homeless and jobless.

When we met in the mission, he was able to find his way there by mopping floors in that mission in exchange for a bed and food. Problem is, there are only so many "mission jobs" available and so many stories like Tyrone's where the system knocked him down as a teenager and he was unable to recover. He didn't say if he had kids along the way, but what if he had? How would he have "been responsible" and taken care of them?

So yes, the War on Drugs actually causes fatherless homes, increases poverty, takes away the voting rights of those imprisoned, and actually creates more bodies who need public assistance and welfare programs simply to survive, not to mention the (taxpayer) cost it takes to house a single prisoner.

Every unconstitutional policy causes problems and solves none.

The Constitution is a declaration of human rights, so, to violate it is to violate human rights.

There is no way to fix the mess, other than complete liberty, and execution of those unwilling to control themselves.
The first step in baby-sitting the people, was the beginning of the end.

Most "conservatives" I've heard speak in the last 20 years, are nowhere near a Constitutionalist.

I've never heard a liberal who wasn't at least a Socialist Humanist, if not a Communist.

For Instance: Jefferson advised us to overthrow the Gov every 50 years.
I'll vote for the candidate who runs on that platform.

earnestly contend

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I had the misfortune to be staying on the near north side of Chicago in 1993 when the Bulls won their 3rd title. I remember driving by Cabrini Green fearing for my life. This was the inner city showing their team spirit. I remember several cars tipped over, windows being broken and at least one police car on fire. The Chicago paper, the next day, said several people were killed in the riot / celebration.

I fear we are not far away from mass riots breaking out all over. The liberal social welfare experiments we call inner cities show how destructive those policies have been. We need to rebuild the homes (of all races) in the inner cities and we need to put people to work. Generations of dependence on other to care for your needs does not end well.

That was in celebration. Imagine if your unarmed friend who was doing nothing wrong, gets stopped by the police and ends up dead? What if it were your brother or cousin or dad?
It isn't so much the liberal policies that have brought this on, but moreso the criminal justice system ever since Reagan's "War on Drug" campaign which put $ in the coffers of poor police departments and lined the pockets of private prison institutions ("prisons for profit"). The New Jim Crow.

So you are saying the terrible condition of our inner cities is less about the lack of fathers in the homes, loss of jobs and Liberal social policy and more about drug policy and our war on drugs?

Actually, he is correct on this one. Were it not for the war on drugs there wouldn't be the huge amount of money involved that sucked so many in and resulted in even more absent fathers in prison. We saw the folly of prohibition and stopped it. With drugs we have gone the other way and in the process made it worse.

The only law that can never be repealed is the law of unintended consequences (unless the huge increase in incarcerated black men was the intention).

This is correct. Take my friend "Tyrone". At 16, living with his single mom and special needs brother, needed money to help his mom out. No transportation and the majority of "ghetto jobs" (such as CVS, McDonalds, etc.) are taken by girls. Anyway, the only way he saw to make money was to deliver drugs. He didn't sell or use, was just the carrier. He got busted with a small bit. He couldn't make bail (too poor) and then he was introduced into the prison system. He started in the JV home but at 17, was moved to the big house. Though it was his first (and only) offense, Tyrone finally got his day in court. His lawyer was a public defender and told him to plead guilty and he would be out in a year or two, or he could go to a full trial and risk 10 or more years. He took the advise of his attorney.
Tyrone ended up staying 6 years before getting out. At 22, he is on the street, no job, no skill, not even a GED as he had dropped out of school (and unlike some systems, he was unable to obtain it in his area). What does he do? He couldn't get a job because each job application asked if he had been convicted of a felony. His job applications were probably thrown out. He couldn't get married. Due to Bill Clinton's welfare reform policies, he was limited to 5 years on public assistance. He had no mode of transportation. He beat up his mom's abusive boyfriend while protecting her, then ended up in prison yet again, for another 4 years. (Yes, more time for carrying drugs than assault.) Coming out again, he was homeless and jobless.
When we met in the mission, he was able to find his way there by mopping floors in that mission in exchange for a bed and food. Problem is, there are only so many "mission jobs" available and so many stories like Tyrone's where the system knocked him down as a teenager and he was unable to recover. He didn't say if he had kids along the way, but what if he had? How would he have "been responsible" and taken care of them?
So yes, the War on Drugs actually causes fatherless homes, increases poverty, takes away the voting rights of those imprisoned, and actually creates more bodies who need public assistance and welfare programs simply to survive, not to mention the (taxpayer) cost it takes to house a single prisoner.

So like I said the lack of good paying jobs (not min-wage entry level jobs) is part of the solution. I'm for increasing the amounts of drugs considered "intent to supply" but i'm not sure that would have helped here. The violent behavior and gun possession would have still landed him in jail at some point. why didn't he call the police instead of beating the guy up. Domestic abuse is a very serous charge.

No gun possession. Why didn't he call the cops? If you came in the door and saw somebody hitting your mom around, would you call the cops first and wait for them to show up and intervene? Plus, since he had a record, why would you think they wouldn't pull him in anyway?

Anyway, the lack of decent jobs that don't require a college degree are very limited in the inner-city areas. If Trump or Clinton could bring industry back into the inner-cities, that would be a boon in the fight against poverty.

 

[subllibrm]

<snip>  The violent behavior and gun possession would have still landed him in jail at some point. why didn't he call the police instead of beating the guy up. Domestic abuse is a very serous charge.

Did I miss the "gun"?

Not to quibble but I doubt that the police would make his mom's beating by an abusive boyfriend a priority response.

Of course if Bubba did it to defend Momma back in the holler we would call him a man of character for standing up for what is right. 

 

[Bob H]

Expect another shopping spree. It will be declared a justified shooting.