Tithing Under the Law

[subllibrm]

Another FFF "urinating" match. This time over who is most generous in giving.

Someone bring a mop. We have a clean up in the HAC forum.

 

[praise_yeshua]

A question for the folks who say that since tithing was practiced and commanded in the OT it was "under the law," and therefore not to be practiced by New Testament Baptist Churches. Your thinking is that tithes should brought only to the Jewish Temple.

Now printed on our church tithing envelopes is a verse and I was hoping some of you non tithers could explain it.

"And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee." Genesis 28:22

Thoughts?



And this stone

I never said it was exclusively under the law. I said it was about Israel. You're referencing Jacobs experience at the place he called Bethel. How do you determine to ignore all subsequent revelation concerning the tithe and tie Bethel to giving to 10 percent to your local church? God's last command concerning the tithe was call upon Israel to bring ALL the tithe to the storehouse. God never changed that command. Are you saying He did? Prove it!

I asked you. I know what I believe and you won't change that. It's something to watch people try to explain away scripture.

Okay... I said it was about Israel. Do you even know that Jacob had his name changed? Pray tell.... What did his name become?

It rather sad that you think you've found some proof verse in Genesis 28:22

By the way, maybe you can explain how Jacob gave 10 percent to God? You care to elaborate?

Most people tend to talk of Abraham and his tithe. The Scriptures show Abraham tithing to the spoils of war to the King of Salem. A "king" among a priestly order alive during the time of Abraham. Maybe you might make an application. I'm rather certain the order of Melchizedek existed during the life of Jacob.

Still.... its about Israel.

Israel--Law,  C'mon

I may be wrong about this assessment of you not knowing who you are. But you remind me of a guy on the internet years ago who hated Santa Claus. I hit a nerve when I told him the only reason he didn't like Santa Claus was that he was too cheap to buy his family presents.

From what I see of you, you just don't want to tithe. So you act the same way a lot of backslidden people do when confronted by scripture, you either explain it away, or say I don't see it that way.

Like I said, I could be wrong about you, but I doubt it.

I needed another post for my statistics. This way Raider can't call me a deadbeat.

Would you show me a Christian in the church you attend who refuses to give God a tithe that God has blessed financially beyond measure? You know, someone who has refused to tithe who God has opened the windows of heavens and poured out  a blessing not room enough to receive.

Now I can show you a long line of people who tithe on the gross to whom God has literally given thousands of dollars.

So God was only talking about thousands of dollars? I thought it was going to be so much "you can't contain it". I can contain thousands of dollars rather easily. In fact, it'll take 30 or 40 of them to buy a decent car anymore.

I thought God blessed us because of Jesus? I didn't know we got what we got because we paid our "tithe" to your church.

By the way.....Did Jesus not really mean what He said about laying up treasures in Heaven?

Soooooooo, you don't have anyone you can point to and say, I refuse to give God a tithe and God has given me ......

I gave my OWN example. I'm talking about ME!

I haven't tithed in many years. God hasn't cursed me. God hasn't killed me and I have more now than I have ever had.

 

[subllibrm]

I haven't tithed in many years. God hasn't cursed me. God hasn't killed me and I have more now than I have ever had.

Greedy pig. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

I haven't tithed in many years. God hasn't cursed me. God hasn't killed me and I have more now than I have ever had.

Greedy pig. 

LOL. You bet him to it......

 

[bgwilkinson]

2Co 9:6    But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.2Co 9:7    Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

This is the NT standard for a Christian. Has nothing to do with the OT practice of giving the tithe.

Why would we want to limit God's bountiful reaping by sowing so sparingly?

I pity those stuck in the legalistic world of OT tithing.

 

[Timotheus]

We give not to be blessed but because we are blessed.

 

[bgwilkinson]

We give not to be blessed but because we are blessed.

Amen

 

[subllibrm]

First let me say that when I use the term tithe in this post I am specifically referring to the temple tax system of Israel.

What intrigues me about this issue is that when someone points out that the tithe was a command to Israel and not the church they are making a interpretive statement about scripture. But the response to the statement is to accuse the person of not giving. I know a lady who gives 90% of her income. She says that with the level of blessing that God has given to her financially it would be sin to give less than that. She is not tithing yet she is obviously giving.

This is the same mindset that thinks that a person pointing out that drinking alcohol is not prohibited in scripture means that person is a drinker. I do not drink. Never have. Even before Christ. But I will stand firmly against those who would twist scripture to make say things that it clearly does not say. That is not promoting alcohol, it is promoting proper use of scripture. The same with the tithe. I give but I do not tithe. Why this is so hard for people to understand is a mystery to me.

I also find it interesting that when we discuss homosexuality and someone mentions shellfish, we all agree that they are comparing apples and rocket boosters. The truth is, shellfish and tithing are much more comparable in the fact that they are both non-applicable to the church.

 

[rsc2a]

So, sub, what you are saying is that you are a greedy swindler who hates God?

 

[subllibrm]

So, sub, what you are saying is that you are a greedy swindler who hates God?

Of course I am, I worship with rock music don't I?  ;D

 

[praise_yeshua]

First let me say that when I use the term tithe in this post I am specifically referring to the temple tax system of Israel.

What intrigues me about this issue is that when someone points out that the tithe was a command to Israel and not the church they are making a interpretive statement about scripture. But the response to the statement is to accuse the person of not giving. I know a lady who gives 90% of her income. She says that with the level of blessing that God has given to her financially it would be sin to give less than that. She is not tithing yet she is obviously giving.

This is the same mindset that thinks that a person pointing out that drinking alcohol is not prohibited in scripture means that person is a drinker. I do not drink. Never have. Even before Christ. But I will stand firmly against those who would twist scripture to make say things that it clearly does not say. That is not promoting alcohol, it is promoting proper use of scripture. The same with the tithe. I give but I do not tithe. Why this is so hard for people to understand is a mystery to me.

I also find it interesting that when we discuss homosexuality and someone mentions shellfish, we all agree that they are comparing apples and rocket boosters. The truth is, shellfish and tithing are much more comparable in the fact that they are both non-applicable to the church.

While I agree with much of what you wrote. I think its not entirely accurate to call the tithe to the temple a tax system. The Kings and rulers of Israel received monies apart from this "system". Which I would say was a true "tax system". I have called it a "tax system" over the years but I've changed the way I reference it. The Tithe, under the law, was the inheritance for the Tribe of Levi. It also supported other forms of relief with national Israel. I just wouldn't compare it to a "tax system". Just my thoughts.

 

[subllibrm]

First let me say that when I use the term tithe in this post I am specifically referring to the temple tax system of Israel.

What intrigues me about this issue is that when someone points out that the tithe was a command to Israel and not the church they are making a interpretive statement about scripture. But the response to the statement is to accuse the person of not giving. I know a lady who gives 90% of her income. She says that with the level of blessing that God has given to her financially it would be sin to give less than that. She is not tithing yet she is obviously giving.

This is the same mindset that thinks that a person pointing out that drinking alcohol is not prohibited in scripture means that person is a drinker. I do not drink. Never have. Even before Christ. But I will stand firmly against those who would twist scripture to make say things that it clearly does not say. That is not promoting alcohol, it is promoting proper use of scripture. The same with the tithe. I give but I do not tithe. Why this is so hard for people to understand is a mystery to me.

I also find it interesting that when we discuss homosexuality and someone mentions shellfish, we all agree that they are comparing apples and rocket boosters. The truth is, shellfish and tithing are much more comparable in the fact that they are both non-applicable to the church.

While I agree with much of what you wrote. I think its not entirely accurate to call the tithe to the temple a tax system. The Kings and rulers of Israel received monies apart from this "system". Which I would say was a true "tax system". I have called it a "tax system" over the years but I've changed the way I reference it. The Tithe, under the law, was the inheritance for the Tribe of Levi. It also supported other forms of relief with national Israel. I just wouldn't compare it to a "tax system". Just my thoughts.

You are correct. In fact there were multiple "tithes". My point was that the temple portion of the OT tithing does not translate to the NT church.

 

[prophet]

A question for the folks who say that since tithing was practiced and commanded in the OT it was "under the law," and therefore not to be practiced by New Testament Baptist Churches. Your thinking is that tithes should brought only to the Jewish Temple.

Now printed on our church tithing envelopes is a verse and I was hoping some of you non tithers could explain it.

"And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee." Genesis 28:22

Thoughts?



And this stone

I never said it was exclusively under the law. I said it was about Israel. You're referencing Jacobs experience at the place he called Bethel. How do you determine to ignore all subsequent revelation concerning the tithe and tie Bethel to giving to 10 percent to your local church? God's last command concerning the tithe was call upon Israel to bring ALL the tithe to the storehouse. God never changed that command. Are you saying He did? Prove it!

I asked you. I know what I believe and you won't change that. It's something to watch people try to explain away scripture.

Okay... I said it was about Israel. Do you even know that Jacob had his name changed? Pray tell.... What did his name become?

It rather sad that you think you've found some proof verse in Genesis 28:22

By the way, maybe you can explain how Jacob gave 10 percent to God? You care to elaborate?

Most people tend to talk of Abraham and his tithe. The Scriptures show Abraham tithing to the spoils of war to the King of Salem. A "king" among a priestly order alive during the time of Abraham. Maybe you might make an application. I'm rather certain the order of Melchizedek existed during the life of Jacob.

Still.... its about Israel.

Israel--Law,  C'mon

I may be wrong about this assessment of you not knowing who you are. But you remind me of a guy on the internet years ago who hated Santa Claus. I hit a nerve when I told him the only reason he didn't like Santa Claus was that he was too cheap to buy his family presents.

From what I see of you, you just don't want to tithe. So you act the same way a lot of backslidden people do when confronted by scripture, you either explain it away, or say I don't see it that way.

Like I said, I could be wrong about you, but I doubt it.

I needed another post for my statistics. This way Raider can't call me a deadbeat.

Would you show me a Christian in the church you attend who refuses to give God a tithe that God has blessed financially beyond measure? You know, someone who has refused to tithe who God has opened the windows of heavens and poured out  a blessing not room enough to receive.

Now I can show you a long line of people who tithe on the gross to whom God has literally given thousands of dollars.

So God was only talking about thousands of dollars? I thought it was going to be so much "you can't contain it". I can contain thousands of dollars rather easily. In fact, it'll take 30 or 40 of them to buy a decent car anymore.

I thought God blessed us because of Jesus? I didn't know we got what we got because we paid our "tithe" to your church.

By the way.....Did Jesus not really mean what He said about laying up treasures in Heaven?

Soooooooo, you don't have anyone you can point to and say, I refuse to give God a tithe and God has given me ......

Read the context in Malachi, and the related passages it references.
God is reminding the now cursed Israel, that His curse can reverse, if they return to honoring the Covenant that they made with Him.
No one else was promised that it would rain on their fields, which is what "open windows of heaven" is,  rain.
No one else was promised that their crops would be more than they could keep...which means that the tithe wouldn't be needed or able to be stored, if they hadn't given it away.
No one was promised this except the Nation of Israel.

The burden of proof lies with you, now.

You have to prove that God made a Covenant with the Church, in Levitical fashion.

BTW, to teach that a Saint can be cursed, is to expose your lack of understanding of Salvation.


Haklo

 

[sword]

Question for those who do not believe in tithing.
1. Would you say we are suppose to support the local church through our increase and the old testament example of 10% could be applied today regarding supporting our local ministries. Would you agree to it, not as a command, but as a reference to compare to.

2. How do you propose to support the local church and its ministries if members do not give.

3. What do you believe God expects each of us to give?

4. Do you think, in the USA, most people can afford to give 10%?

5. What should new Christians be taught regarding biblical giving.
   

 

[prophet]

Question for those who do not believe in tithing.
1. Would you say we are suppose to support the local church through our increase and the old testament example of 10% could be applied today regarding supporting our local ministries. Would you agree to it, not as a command, but as a reference to compare to.

2. How do you propose to support the local church and its ministries if members do not give.

3. What do you believe God expects each of us to give?

4. Do you think, in the USA, most people can afford to give 10%?

5. What should new Christians be taught regarding biblical giving.
 

1. No, "our abundance" not "our increase".  I'm sure any Assembly would appreciate one of it's members, being a farmer, bringing some of his harvest in for the relief of the poorer members.
There is no command to give, to those who don't have excess, period, and it is pure blatant "prosperity gospel" sheep-devouring to infer that there is.

2. False premise alert....you are insisting that no one can give, without "tithing".
NT giving?  Give.
You can't control "give", or "as he purposeth in his heart", so you want to force him to commit, out loud, on paper, to giving what he hasn't even received yet.  Since thou knowest not what a day may bring forth, this is Sin.

3.God gives the gift of giving to some in the church.  Rom 12:6-8
For others, when they have extra, over their family's need, they are to look to the affairs of others.
If the church deems a collection necessary, it should always be voluntary, of what each presently has abundance of, and that is all.

Testimony time...the times that we had to rent a building, the year's rent was paid off up front.
Once, a heroin addict that we lead to the Lord, never showed up to assemble, but her grandkids did.
Her husband was a Mennonite Elder, and she, infamously, wouldn't go to even here him preach, when it was his turn.
Well, we hadn't seen her for 2 years, and we were looking for an assembly room to rent.
This was in the City of Chicago, so, commercial space was costly.
We met with a local Mennonite Assembly, who didn't use their building at the hours during which we were looking to assemble.

I sat amazed, at the Assembly of Elders, as they testified of how the life of the  one Elder's wife had transformed.
They knew that God was with our Assembly, and felt that He had sent us there to bless them.
They needed some repairs done to the building, including a roof, and we had recently led a roofer  (flat roof modified burn-down roofing) to the Lord.
For 2 years we had the rent payed, by doing repairs.
Before the third year started, we led a lady to the Lord, who sold her 3-flat, in order to pay for lawyers in a custody battle for her grandkids...she wrote a check for a year's rent.

So, God has a way....

Haklo

 

[praise_yeshua]

Question for those who do not believe in tithing.
1. Would you say we are suppose to support the local church through our increase and the old testament example of 10% could be applied today regarding supporting our local ministries. Would you agree to it, not as a command, but as a reference to compare to.

2. How do you propose to support the local church and its ministries if members do not give.

3. What do you believe God expects each of us to give?

4. Do you think, in the USA, most people can afford to give 10%?

5. What should new Christians be taught regarding biblical giving.
 

I have simple answer for you. A very simple answer.

Church is a place to gather and worship God. Its not a place to gather monies for much of anything. Paul even said these words to those at Corinth.

1Co_16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Did you notice that? Do you even care?

Paul was addressing a one time collect of monies for the needy saints in Jerusalem. In fact, he didn't want it going on while he was there.

The local church isn't the center point of giving to the cause of Christ!!!

YOU ARE!!!!

 

[subllibrm]

Question for those who do not believe in tithing.

Me thinks you are equating tithing with giving and coming to the conclusion that there are people who believe we are not to give.

1. Would you say we are suppose to support the local church through our increase and the old testament example of 10% could be applied today regarding supporting our local ministries. Would you agree to it, not as a command, but as a reference to compare to.

Yes we are to support or local body/congregation/assembly with our time talent and treasure. I have no problem using 10% as an example and/or reference point. I would not claim it as a command.

2. How do you propose to support the local church and its ministries if members do not give.

Why would they not give? See, me thought correctly.

3. What do you believe God expects each of us to give?

The exact amount He leads them to give. He led the widow to give her last two pennies. Has he led you to give all that you have?

4. Do you think, in the USA, most people can afford to give 10%?

Of course. They can afford smart phones can't they? Actually most could afford more. So what?a Most believers that I know well enough to be aware of their giving hit a much high plateau. But again, so what?

5. What should new Christians be taught regarding biblical giving.

That they have a responsibility to consider all that they have to be property of God. And that when he directs them to give from their possessions,  they are to do so as an act of worship and obedience.

 

[sword]

Question for those who do not believe in tithing.

Me thinks you are equating tithing with giving and coming to the conclusion that there are people who believe we are not to give.

1. Would you say we are suppose to support the local church through our increase and the old testament example of 10% could be applied today regarding supporting our local ministries. Would you agree to it, not as a command, but as a reference to compare to.

Yes we are to support or local body/congregation/assembly with our time talent and treasure. I have no problem using 10% as an example and/or reference point. I would not claim it as a command.

2. How do you propose to support the local church and its ministries if members do not give.

Why would they not give? See, me thought correctly.

3. What do you believe God expects each of us to give?

The exact amount He leads them to give. He led the widow to give her last two pennies. Has he led you to give all that you have?

4. Do you think, in the USA, most people can afford to give 10%?

Of course. They can afford smart phones can't they? Actually most could afford more. So what?a Most believers that I know well enough to be aware of their giving hit a much high plateau. But again, so what?

5. What should new Christians be taught regarding biblical giving.

That they have a responsibility to consider all that they have to be property of God. And that when he directs them to give from their possessions,  they are to do so as an act of worship and obedience.

I can live with your take on tithing. I'm not so sure I can agree with some of the others peoples views regarding giving.

It seems the major sticking point is preachers teaching its robbing God not to give at least 10%  It seems you just want the amount to be as God blesses and impresses on each persons heart. Would that be pretty close?

 

[rsc2a]

I teach people to give as they are able. For some, that is 2%. For others, that is 42%. I caveat that with the idea that able and comfortable are different things.

 

[subllibrm]

I can live with your take on tithing. I'm not so sure I can agree with some of the others peoples views regarding giving.

It seems the major sticking point is preachers teaching its robbing God not to give at least 10%  It seems you just want the amount to be as God blesses and impresses on each persons heart. Would that be pretty close?

I would put much more emphasis on impresses than blesses. But basically yes. Now I have seen God meet my needs with 90% that wouldn't be possible even if I had kept 100% BUT in the seasons where 10% was legitimately not possible I have not seen Him withhold blessing. As a matter of faith and prayer I believe it falls to the believer priest to determine through communion with God what should be given. To whom. How much. How often. When God reveals these to you you will be a cheerful giver. That is the promise.

From a practical standpoint, I recommend that new believers make giving a regular part of their life change. If able (so many people are upside down on everything these days) I believe 10% is a good place to start but certainly not required. And I believe that the widow and her mites show that there is a place for faith/obedience in giving. Something led her to put the last of her money in the offering (obedience) while trusting that God would supply (faith).

Most important in all of this is that we not fall into a give to get mentality. Then it not faith, obedience or worship.

And BTW giving is not limited to money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5LnNEgMuKU